S4 E1: Featuring Jonathan Lo

Tracie:

Welcome, everyone, and thank you for joining us for Traceability podcast today. I am your host, Tracie Edwards. And today, my guest is Jonathan Lo. Jonathan and I recently connected over a mutual interest in fractional, so we will be talking more about that today. But first, just some background on Jonathan. He has over a decade of experience leading digital marketing efforts at organizations such as World Vision, Overstock, Bed Bath & Beyond, and he's managed over $50 million in annual advertising across millions of products resulting in higher conversion rates, revenue and market share. And he's now joined the fractional services industry. He's launched his own consultancy, saltfoundrystrategy.com. So very excited to hear more about that. Alongside a master's degree in management from Harvard, he spends his time learning from and contributing to communities, such as Harvard's Innovation Labs, Y Combinator's startup school, and CMOx. And he is also earned certifications from McKinsey Management. So welcome, Jonathan. So happy to have you here, someone with your wealth of knowledge and expertise. We really appreciate it.

Jonathan:

Thank you, Tracie. I'm so excited to be here, and honored to be a part of your podcast.

Tracie:

Well, typically, how we start out at Traceability is we dive into some basic background, and we've touched on your schooling and some of the work you've done there, but really, I wanted to dive into what was it that attracted you to marketing, and what was your first marketing rule?

Jonathan:

It's interesting, my undergraduate degree is in electrical engineering at the University of Illinois, but it was near the end of my university years, around junior, senior year, where I learned about global poverty issues and felt very compelled to do something about it. And so I ended up joining a campus organization that raised advocacy and funds to support those who are suffering from global poverty, and ultimately ended up taking a one-year fellowship program with World Vision, which is a Christian humanitarian organization. And they may be one of the larger nonprofits that some folks have not heard of, but they raise about 2 billion in annual donations, and serve in over 90 countries, with over 40,000 staff, and they do long-term sustainable community development in a lot of different contexts. I took that fellowship to really make an impact, and fell in love with the organization and was seeking for ways to stay. Ultimately, what happened is because of my engineering background, I was very comfortable with numbers, and found myself in a data analytics role at the company pretty quickly. From analytics, I ended up taking a full-time position, with the job that I say you give millennials, we had no discernible skills necessarily back in the day, which is organic social media marketing. So I ran our Facebook page that had over a million fans, launched our Pinterest, ran our Twitter, all of those platforms. I just really got in the weeds of managing the community, creating all the content, diving into the strategy of how we engage with the audiences, and that really was my introduction into digital marketing. From there, I got very curious, ended up taking a role in mobile product management and channel management, relaunched a mobile website that increased conversion rate by over 50%. Continually found myself interested in the different areas of digital marketing, by myself in digital advertising, and ran our multimillion dollar budget of paid, search, and display, and then ended up taking a career... pivot a bit, where I felt I was hitting a bit of the ceiling of the right hard skills for what I needed to learn next to my career, made myself open a for-profit. And that's where Overstock found me on LinkedIn, hired me over, and I moved for them to lead their display and paid social. And so that's the intro. There's a lot more to my career journey, I can share more, but that's how I got into marketing. But to address a bit of your question of why I enjoy marketing, where the passion is, I'd say there is both a philosophical and a practical element to it. I see marketing as a great way to help solve people's problems. If you don't know a product exists, it can't help you. And so really, for example, if Apple never did any marketing and we didn't know an iPhone existed, how could we have all the benefits that this product has to offer us? And so I'd say often that marketing done at its worst is manipulation, but marketing at its best is inspiration, and helps connect people with the solutions to the problems that they have. Additionally, whether or not they were even aware of their problem to begin with sometimes, if you ask somebody 50 years ago whether an iPhone could solve their problems, they wouldn't even have the imagination, understand what that product could do for them. So that's philosophically a bit of why I really enjoy marketing. In the day-to-day, I really enjoy leveraging in a sense both parts of the brain. Marketing is this interesting blend of art and science. There's the art of the creative, and the copy, and the inspiration, and testing all of that, and there's the science of all the data analytics, and actually running the tests, and looking at trends, and understanding really what is able to move customers onto the next stage of their journey. And so I really enjoyed daily that blend of art and science.

Tracie:

That's great. I never looked at it that way, the art and science, but that makes total sense, and especially the creative aspect of it. I can see how that would really speak to you. A couple of things that I wanted to ask you about, first of all, there's so much marketing noise these days. Every organization is asking for email addresses, they're asking for subscriptions, they're pushing marketing content religiously, all the time, daily, multiple times a day. So how do we differentiate between the marketing noise and make our marketing more authentic, worth engaging with?

Jonathan:

Yeah, I love that question, because we really are flooded with more and more impressions of brands, and messaging more than we've ever been in a history of mankind, and with so much screen time as well. Brands, I say, again, at its worst, marketing can be a manipulation, how do we drive people to take action they might regret, but really, we just care about our dollars and numbers today, or as marketing inspiration, where we really meet them where they're at and move them toward the things that make them essentially the hero in their own stories, and the product is a support for whatever it is they're trying to accomplish. And I think the most effective way to view marketing philosophically is that we really need empathy in every part of the customer journey. And so when I talk about what I like to call empathy marketing, really, I'm not inventing anything new, there's been a lot of research and best practices around this idea, but really, it is that job to be done methodology. What is the job to be done when actually presenting your product for someone? And I like to think about it for every aspect of the funnel, from the awareness stages of even being problem-unaware to becoming problem-aware, to solution-aware to product-aware, the most aware of your product, and then consideration, considering the product then, to purchasing, ideally, [inaudible 00:08:52] purchasing, and ultimately becoming an advocate for the brand. If we can meet you where you're at... and oldie but a goodie, I think Nike does a great job. Yes, they obviously sell shoes, and when you're a new brand, you really do need to set your product features first and foremost, and most clearly communicating what those are, but as you're able to really get at the core of the need, Nike's Just Do It campaign was really... again, making the customer the hero and entering into their story, and then allowing shoes to just be almost a byproduct, but also this brand association that they have of you becoming the best version of who you all can be and aspire to be as an athlete, I think they did a great job. And so I think that's the best way for brands to cut through the clutter, is really, really understanding their ideal customer profile, their target customer segment, whatever you call it, their customer, the human that they're selling to, and helping move them along in every stage of their journey, both with tactical and technological advantages, such as all the different ways to get the message to them with personalization, with DSPs and social media marketing, and influencer marketing, all that, but also with clear messaging that gets them to see what their life could be if they shop with your brand.

Tracie:

Envisioning how we want to engage with a product and how we want to be an advocate for that, I think as consumers, we're not often aware of how our perspective can help a particular brand. So I like that, that there's a way for the marketing to be more authentic, more empathetic toward the customer and that type of thing that will attract the customer to become an advocate for your brand.

Jonathan:

Yeah. And as an example, even with the nonprofit I was a part of, really understanding the different core needs for why someone might donate. Essentially, they're giving money for what? For no real tangible product, they're not literally receiving anything, but there is a job to be done for the organization there. And so for example, one of the big donation products, if you may call it that, is child sponsorship. And for different customer targets, there were different reasons why they were attracted to that as a way to make an impact in the world. Some people really love the idea of connecting with a specific child on the other side of the world who does have needs, and who you can watch them grow over time and send special gifts, and see the impact of the change in their community, and how it's making for their own education, for their dreams. And there's this real personalized element to it. But there are also other donors who hear more about sustainable community development, and how sponsorship, as a funding model, really allows for transformation in food security, economic development, and clean water, and all of those elements as well. And so when you understand the needs differently, then you can, in a sense, market to, which sounds like a sterile way to say it, but essentially provide content, and value, and engagement for customers in the different ways based on what they value and what their job to be done is.

Tracie: I like that, it's a different spin on marketing, a way that marketing can contribute to the world, which I think is super easy to lose sight of. Another thing to lose sight of, the last several years have been challenging for most businesses. Often, that impacts the marketing role a little more so than others, whether through budget cuts, et cetera. In light of all of that, in light of the altruistic nature that you see in marketing, how is it that you have been able to really sustain your career, especially over these last several years?

Jonathan:

There have been certain inflection points in my career, and then there's also the day-to-day. And as far as inflection points, I worked for this nonprofit for about 7 years, and I was feeling as if there's obviously more to learn from the really great leaders there, but from where I was earlier in my career, there were certain technical elements I needed to dive much deeper into. And so that meant likely working for for-profit and switching industries wildly, and I made myself open to that. And so I did end up going to Overstock, which had even larger budgets, and a lot of data analysts in the building, and really great vision for how to personalize, and technology and the budget to enact a lot of those programs. And so I was able to grow a lot where I was, and to stay long enough to make an impact, and to learn a lot from the mentors there. But then I was also willing to and looking for change when needed. Another example is even while I was at Overstock, I ended up pursuing a master's degree in management. And so I worked on my master's degree while working full-time. Because I felt that while I was growing so much on my company specifically, there was also a whole realm of understanding and baseline foundations that I never had, since my degree was in engineering, I wanted to learn the things that my degree had to offer. It wasn't just about getting the letters. The first course I took was accounting because I thought, "Hey, even if I don't finish this program, I would really love to learn and understand accounting basics because that will help me help businesses more." And I did stick with the program. And so there was finance, and international marketing, and enterprise management programs, and psychology, and all of that that I really enjoyed. And so those were a couple of the broader inflection points where I really made a decision, a bigger decision, to continue to grow in my career. I would say, also, in the day-to-day, there's an element of trying to always be curious, letting myself... and scheduling time, time blocking, where I can go down the rabbit hole of understanding very specific bidding methodologies on a certain DSP, right technology, and really getting into the weeds of things. And another thing I recommend for everyone as well is really finding great mentors. And mentors can be within your company as well as outside of your company. And that has been a huge value in my life, is having someone who is farther along in their career, who can be an outside voice into mine and see... Again, someone in the company is great because they can see the interactions that you have, and see you present to your work and give feedback on that. But also, mentors outside of your company can be very helpful to provide a broader perspective on your career overall. And I will add just one tip, if any of your listeners are struggling to find mentors, or they have someone in mind and aren't sure how to approach them, and to have a recurring meeting, one thing that's worked really well for me is somehow get the first meeting. And most people are willing to grab a quick coffee or lunch, especially if you treat, or just swing by to their desk and ask for a little bit of time. Folks tend to be... even if their calendars are busy, they tend to be honored that you're asking. And most people who would make good mentors would be excited to talk to you, or maybe they're not the right mentor for you anyway. So somehow, get that first meeting, be willing to ask. And then my little tip for how to get a second meeting is in that first meeting, ask them if there's a particular book that they recommend you read. It can be a book that was really impactful for their own life or something that they see that could be useful for your life. And go buy and read the book. And after you finish reading the book, let them know, "Hey, I took your advice, I did this..." I, effort, action, "based on our meeting, I took many hours to get through this. I would love to meet again and share some of my thoughts, or get your questions at certain elements of this book." And that is a great way to get a second meeting that demonstrates you really listening and valuing their opinion. And during that second meeting, you could do it again, ask for another book, or you could ask for some sort of recurring mentorship cadence, which could be quarterly or monthly depending on schedules. So there's a tip for how you might be able to get a second meeting with someone.

Tracie:

And that is a really good tip. As follow up to that, so when Jonathan and I first met a couple of weeks ago, one of the books he recommended to me was The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek. So reporting back that I have been reading the-

Jonathan:

Oh, wow.

Tracie:

While we've got a little time, what I think is great about the Infinite Game is because it looks at, whatever role you have, but it looks at the whole perspective of you're sustaining your career, your career is not just a particular role at a particular company, it's a long-term thing for how you're going to provide value to lots and lots of people over the course of time. And it doesn't even have to go to your retirement, it can go beyond your retirement or whatever. So I don't know, your thoughts on that maybe, and the infinite nature of our careers.

Jonathan:

So the older I get, the more experience I get, the more I really desire to spend my time in a way that is life giving to me, and providing value to others in a way that's truly sustainable for the longterm. And that's actually a big reason why I transition my career into being a fractional chief marketing officer... and we can get more into that later. But for me, specifically, that seems like a very exciting way for me to engage with businesses, to work with the kinds of companies I'm passionate about, and to leave a lasting impact and a really efficient and effective way for the businesses. I think to recap a little bit this idea of the Infinite Game, and obviously, Simon Sinek will say it better than me, "Use the source material." He has many videos on this, and in fact, I've been putting in a play this principle years before I even started reading the book. And so there's plenty of videos and snippets that your listeners can dive into. But it's this idea that, and I've learned this in grad school too, is the companies that chase profitability are the ones that end up not being profitable in the long run, but the companies that chase adding value to the world and solving people's problems end up being rewarded with profitability over time as well. And Simon will share a story of where he was fairly back to back in meetings with Microsoft and Apple many years ago. And when he was with Microsoft, the big question that all the executives seemed to be having was around, "How do we beat Apple?" And when he was spending time with Apple, all the conversations that he was in, it seemed, and even the informal ones outside of the board group, the conversations were around, "How do we help educators teach children better?" There are finite and infinite games, and finite games, there's a known set of players, and there's rules and there's winners and losers. And if you view business that way, if you want to be the biggest or best in terms of revenue, or market share, or you want your stock price to be the highest, or you just want to do better than somebody else, you're always chasing that competition, you end up not servicing your company or your customers the best in the long run. And an infinite game is unique, in that the point of the game isn't to win. He says, "The point of the infinite game is to keep playing the game." And so when I think about that as an approach to my own career as well, am I chasing the next title, the next salary band, the next... whatever it is, accolade, or am I able to find a way that I enjoy my work enough that I'm chasing the ability to keep doing what I love doing? And it can take a lot of soul-searching and a lot of years to continue to refine, to understand what that might be for someone, because you do need to find that intersection of what you're passionate about with what the world needs, and also what you can make money and make a living doing. That's that perfect Venn diagram intersection, and is not always easy or obvious to figure out what that is. But that is a bit of my longer term pursuit as well, is to discover what it is that I'm passionate about, that I want to keep doing. And for me, after a lot of soul-searching through grad school and as I was finishing school, I discovered, and clarified really, how I may have not thought of myself as passionate about marketing when I was earlier in my career, I just fell into it, but your decisions and your back of decisions really show a lot of what you value. And the fact that I kept going, and it kept growing... and I do at times binge on YouTube videos late into the night on brand strategy, methodologies, and frameworks, I really think that's indicative that there's an element of marketing that I really enjoy. And so I've been really leaning into that, and now, wanting to truly build my career around, yes, the tactics and execution, and the driving of metrics for marketing, but also my philosophy on marketing as I see it, and as that continues to be refined over time.

Tracie:

I love that. The other thing that I wanted to touch just briefly on, so speaking of this infinite game, and finding purpose, and that kind of thing, did you take a lateral role at Overstock, where you went from one thing and you went to philanthropy?

Jonathan:

I did take a lateral role. The Philanthropy Alamo was actually more of an add-on to what I was already doing. But I did have a moment where I was leading the display and paid social teams, had tens of millions of dollars of budget, had a multifunctional team reporting directly to me of analysts, specialists, and designers. And there would've been a very natural progression to go from manager to director to VP and all of that. And about a couple of years in, we had a new role in the company, a chief customer officer. And I was really interested in the work that she was doing, which was around customer segmentation, customer strategy, jobs to be done, and all of that. And I love strategy, and I have always been wanting to move into more and more strategic roles that impact the entire company, the look at the broader market. And actually, here's another flashback, I just thought of this, a little bonus tip for career growth is that I always will try to do the things that my manager doesn't want to do. Anything that should be their responsibility that they're willing to let me do... And in fact, now it's value because they don't want to do it, I will take on more, and more, and more of their responsibilities until I'm essentially doing their role, and it makes sense to officially give me more of those responsibilities. So in this case, it was a little different because I was in this promising role and seeing a lot of success in the metrics there, and it was really fun and quite innovative. And I switched to what technically was more of like a project management role that was fairly enigmatic, and had no direct reports and no clear career path. And I actually had a vice president at that company later ask me why I did it. He didn't understand at first why I made that switch because it seemed as if... and the company at the time also wasn't the biggest fan of project managers, or at least that kind of a title. And so it looks strange to some folks, but for me, it was a risk in the career, but it was the direction I knew I wanted to go and the kind of experience I wanted to learn, and I didn't care what it meant for the short-term progression of my next promotions. And so I was able to switch and work directly with the senior vice president, and manage an agency that had very large budgets and do a lot of customer research in a whole world I was completely unfamiliar with. And so qualitative and quantitative research. And ultimately, it did work out for my career, I ended up becoming the director of consumer insights for that company, and all that ended up great. But that was a spot where I ended up taking... either calling it a lateral shift, or even almost what felt like to some a bit of a demotion to learn the thing I wanted to learn, to set up myself better for the future that I envision that I want it to be a part of.

Tracie:

I love that. And something that we try and talk a lot about here on the podcast is the need that we really have to do some deep learning on ourselves, what it is that we want out of our careers, how we want to contribute to the world kind of thing, and then we need to target and make decisions that will lead us in those directions. So thank you for reinforcing that. And you brought up strategy a little bit. So one thing in the world that I have been in for so many years, business analysis, analysts in general, we tend to be pretty tactical, we're working on smaller issues, we're working on where we're in the weeds with problems, and that kind of thing, and that can often prevent us from looking up enough that we're wondering where we are with how we impact the company, and that kind of thing. So what are maybe some of your tips for becoming more strategic, looking up and looking ahead?

Jonathan:

I have always loved working with business analysts, and data analysts, and data scientists, and a lot of my close colleagues and friends at work are in that field. Analysts are honestly the best positioned to find those magical insights that can make a huge difference for the company. When you're in the weeds in the data, if you're able to see the trends and notice the blips and the things that no one else is paying attention to, that's where a tiny change can completely affect your conversion rate, or your margin rates, or whatever it is. For example, if you can find a particular drop-off in the micro conversions of your website, like checkout, for example, and if that can increase your checkout rate by 20, 30, 50%, that is ultimately a huge impact on the overall business. And so I always say that data analysts are really the best position to make a big impact for the company. One trend that I've noticed with multiple analysts that I've worked with, and one recommendation I may have is just to ensure to take the bigger picture of what's valuable for the company, in addition to all of the methodologies and best practices of data analytics. Part of what I mean, specifically, I've run into some cases where we design a test, and it could be an RCT, randomized control trial, really separating out your different cohorts that are representatively the same, and you know what statistical significance means, you have a set date window, and you're not supposed to look at the results before the test is complete. And I philosophically understand that, and understand why it is a best practice. If, say, the test should run for two weeks, or at least reach a certain amount of impressions, or whatever the number is, we'll estimate to take about two weeks, well, if you're one and a half weeks in, and the data really shows a trend in a certain way, and it's an expensive test, what is the right call for the business? Is it to finish out the test, or is it to call it early because of the overwhelming data that you do already have? And are you willing and able to be flexible? Always take the position of, well, what's best for the company, not what's best for the test, that idea of don't lose the forest for the trees, that's my one recommendation, encouragement for data analysts. And in this particular case, I'm not saying it's right to call the test, I'm saying, but would you consider it? And would you consider looking at the data early, and consider the soft elements to running a business that isn't fully purely based on ideal numbers?

Tracie:

So the point is really to at least be comfortable and curious enough to ask the question and then have the conversation after that.

Jonathan:

Yeah, there's an element also to... and this is not true of all the analysts, but I have seen some that I've worked with end up being... and maybe it's due to company culture, or due to the quantity of work that they have, but I never recommend anybody to just become an order taker. Whatever management says, "Let me just do it," and do it with quality, but just follow that order, produce result, move myself onto the next task. And again, some of this has to do with how much your company values your original thought and gives you time and space to be able to be creative in those ways. But as I said, I think data analysts have a lot of opportunities to impact a business. And so I really recommend giving space for original thought as well. And so if you see any trends in the data you happen to be looking for, bring that up, advocate for what you're seeing, and depending on your manager, or your cross-functional managers, they may or may not be receptive, but you have the information, and really become an advocate for that and for the teams that you recommend based on the data that you see. I really recommend being proactive about finding those insights and advocating for them?

Tracie:

Wonderful. In that respect, continuing that train of thought, at a certain point, if you're going to be curious, if you're going to ask the question, if you're going to present the data trends that you're seeing, you need to be able to engage with executives and be able to have some sort of influence with them. Do you have any tips for engaging with executives and crafting that presence, or developing that influence?

Jonathan:

The more experience I gain as well, the more I realize that how impactful the art of communication really is. And so I really recommend crafting, growing in your ability to meet your audience's needs, and providing a narrative that is easy to understand, that's impactful, that is the right level of detail. I watched a video, and I swear this was a TED Talk, but I can't find it anymore, but there was this researcher who basically studied TED Talks, and studied folks who were watching TED Talks and essentially created two groups. And one group listened to dozens of TED Talks as normal, with the full content and audio, and the other group watched the TED Talks but were not able to hear any of the content of what the speakers were saying. And then they had the two groups rank and rate the different speakers and rank who was the most impactful, who was the most authoritative, the most knowledgeable, most interesting, most entertaining, all of those different elements. And I as an introvert, was so almost sad and depressed to hear the result that both groups basically rated all the TED Talks the same way, which the implication was that your content matters a lot less than you think it is. And really, how you say something and how you present something has disproportionate impact compared to the words actually coming out of your mouth. Well, I, as an engineer, as an introvert, that's right, [inaudible 00:35:38] like that just didn't sit well with me, but it's also just objectively true, it's just something that was tested, that we learned that's part of natural human psychology. And that's probably true for myself as well, as much as I might philosophically desire to not be that way. And so with that insight, I personally went on a whole rabbit hole of watching videos on how to speak so people listen, and how to communicate in ways that are effective and all that, all that to say, when communicating with executives, you first have to even value the art of communication and then grow in it. Because I didn't value the art of communication for a lot of my life and into the early years of my career, I thought that the data, the content, that should be enough and people will listen. It is presented, but how we present something makes such an impact. So first is to care about the art of communication, and then the next is to take some action to learn, to understand what level of detail someone wants. A lot of times, executives actually trust you that they don't need to know that you've done the work and how much work you put into it, but they need in the way that you communicate, demonstrate that you have done the work, and are now making the implications, potential options clear to them. And so that moves to another tip I essentially have is, approach executives with your intentions. That was one thing actually our mutual connection who introduced us, Jonathan Johnson, was really a big advocate for, is intent-based leadership. And so going into meetings with executives with literally the phrase, "I intend to, here's the context, here's why, here's what I tend to do. Now, do you have any feedback, or comments, or questions, or suggestions, or tips, or guidance to change that?" But if you had said nothing, "This is the direction I'm going down and why I'm going down this direction, and why this is good for the company," a lot of executives are inundated with problems without solution options, and I think it's really healthy and helpful for them to frame, "Well, you, as the subject matter expert, who knows your area better than the executive will, here's the direction that you think. Now, is there any broader context or strategic guidance that the executive has that can help frame, and shape, or potentially pivot what your current attentions are?" That's the good conversation to have. Not just, "Here's the context, what do I do?" I will caveat a little bit though, because that idea can be taken to an extreme in an unhealthy way, where you feel like you can never go to your executive with questions. And I don't think that's a healthy dynamic either. I think, obviously, we need mentors and leaders to be able to wrestle with ideas about, but there is a nuance on, "Hey, given the information that I do have, here are some specific options, can we wrestle with these together then?" I think there's a healthy way to do that.

Tracie:

That's a really good point. And it brings to mind for me a couple of recent interactions that I had with my executive. The first was, I had a problem, didn't know what to do with a situation with a specific client, but I didn't necessarily come to him with solutions or recommendations. So what he said to me was, "What would you like me to do about it?" Which was a little embarrassing, but it really helped me because later on, in a different interaction that I had with him, I was able to say, "Well, here's what's going on. This is what I recommend." And he was able to reply back, "I totally support that." So super great tip there. Appreciate that. I want to get into the concept of fractional. You've now moved into a career path where you're doing your own consultancy, the Salt Foundry Strategy, and you're focusing specifically on fractional CMO. So maybe talk about what is fractional and why you've chosen to pursue that.

Jonathan:

The idea of a fractional, or in a sense, another term might be a part-time executive, is something that companies have been doing with different departments over time. I think particularly starting with the legal industry, you don't always need a full-time lawyer on staff, but you do need someone who is responsible for all of the legal elements, and who knows your context, and is with you, but you may not need to or want to pay them for their 40 to 60, 80 hours a week. That expanded to the fractional CFO, chief financial officer, same idea. And now, it's expanding as well to other executive roles, such as a chief marketing officer. So the idea of a fractional CMO is that I would be the chief marketing officer for multiple companies at a time, and there's a cap, there's a limit to how many I would ever take on. And so my target will always only be about two to four total companies because there's a certain amount of time that I'm spending with their teams every week, and I need to be able to do a really great job with each client. And so there's a limit to how many I'm going to be working with, so I don't spread myself thin. But the idea is actually I would be your CMO, and your marketing directors and VPs would report to the CMO. The CMO would be on the hook for the metrics, the KPIs that we agree with. I would be responsible. I'm not just a contractor who gives you advice. The fractional CMO is in charge of two things, strategy and leadership. Defining the strategy of how to move the metrics that are important to the company, and then leading your teams, whether it's through sprint planning meetings, or whatever mentorship looks like, or reviewing all the creative, writing creative briefs. There's the strategy element and then there's the leadership element of what a fractional CMO does. And one element that's practically a bit unique as well is that I'm not just an agency that you hire, in fact, I would hire and manage the agencies that you need depending on the marketing strategy. And so that is a bit of a different role, not just giving advice, I'm not just performing a task, I'm really leading your teams.

Tracie:

I love that. And I find it a very interesting concept, especially for smaller organizations that are still in a big growth phase, and they've grown to a certain point and they need to know how to now scale it. And so I love the concept of fractional because it helps them understand the preparation that they need to make and the environmental updates, so they need to change so that they are ready to do that scaling.

Jonathan:

Yeah, a full-time CMO in e-commerce, on average, will cost the company over $300,000 a year. And you might just not need that, but you want the expertise of someone who can define the strategy and lead the teams. And so there's an efficiency element, and there's also a benefit because hiring a fractional CMO, who sees multiple contexts at a time... imagine the amount that I will learn working with your company and three other companies at a time, and all the different vendors, and industries, and best practices, and learning from each element that, in a way, that doesn't hurt confidentiality but that can really benefit your business specifically as well. There's an 80/20 there also, for the maybe 10 hours a week I dedicate to your company how efficient that's going to be, versus if I were to give you 40 to 60 hours a week in a full-time role. And so there's this effectiveness and efficiency element. And then I think another benefit to these businesses is that so many CEOs are functioning as the CMO, and that's not what they're passionate about. So let me take that burden off of you with something I'm actually passionate about, something I actually want to do and have done over and over again for multi-billion dollar businesses. Let me actually take all the expertise, and take the leadership burden and the strategy burden off of you, where you know you have a proven strategy that will work, and also the leadership to manage your teams. And so I become your main point of contact on these metrics and these elements of your business. We help grow together, but you get to save your time, and either truly spend it with your family and friends and your hobbies, or spend on other elements of the business that you're more passionate and more suited for.

Tracie:

And also, I think, to really focus on the things that are the priority in the organization as it comes to marketing, in that example. You, as a fractional executive, will not have time to have 15 things be a priority in that organization. So it's really going to force an organization to really focus in on the things that are really going to provide value.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Yeah, there's a ruthless prioritization element to it. And there's also this element of the art of even defining the problem to be solved. You could spend days, or weeks, or months just making clear what it is we need to solve in a way that's concise, that's time bound, that's actionable, that's achievable. And that also there's an art to breaking up, disaggregating the problem into the different branches for the ways that we can solve that problem, and then assigning the metrics that are really going to matter. And there's a bit of a domain expertise required from marketing to understand, well, is it impressions, and click-through rates, and CPMs, and all of that? Or what is your ROAS versus different kinds of return, like marketing effectiveness scores and all of that? There's some domain knowledge that's necessary for a CMO, but there's also this art of executive leadership of defining the problem, breaking it down, understanding the things that will make a difference, and then leading your teams in a way that empowers them and grows their careers, and give them interesting things to work on that ultimately make the impact for the business that we need.

Tracie:

Love that. Thank you. So just for listeners, I think you're going to be hearing much more about fractional over the years just as business world change, business models change. I think you're going to be hearing more about it. So I hope you take some interest in that topic. Wrapping up today, thank you for the conversation so much. Any questions for me?

Jonathan:

What is it about your listeners that they really... and maybe this is a question that you can throw back to me, what's on their mind, what keeps them up at night, what stresses them about their career growth, or what that looks like that I might be able to lend a perspective on?

Tracie:

Well, I think, right now, most of our listeners are senior in their career. They've been doing the role for many years, and they're looking for a way to provide more of a contribution. They're looking for a way to have some more preparation for what might be down the road for them. And so that's what I have been hoping to provide, especially as we talk with other guests, examples for how they have done that, how they learned to pivot, and how they have learned to be resilient and not be fearful about changes that may be coming.

Jonathan:

Well, let me build a little on my comment earlier around loving the art of communication. With my grad school at Harvard, I took a class in negotiation, which I felt was transformative and something that I wish everyone in the world was required to take because I feel that I'm a better human because of it. And one of the main premises for the class is that there are two different kinds of negotiations, there are distributive negotiations and integrative ones. Distributive negotiations are where there's a certain size of a pie, and yes, if I get a slice, you don't get a slice, and we divide it up and you distribute all the parts, and that's all there is to it. And there are negotiations like that that exist in the world. But what was philosophically interesting for me is this idea of integrative negotiations, where there's essentially a third way to think about these, where we can come and move ourselves to the same side of the table and attack a problem together, and that there is some creative way to find a win-win in this. And the idea was that, more often than we realize, negotiations can be integrative. If you're looking for your next promotion or a different kind of responsibility, it doesn't have to be, "Hey, company, I want a higher salary. So I know your bottom line's going to go down because your G&A is going to go up." And I'm like, "But is worth it to do because of this? And let's just talk about the dollars immediately and all of that." It could be, "Hey, I'm really passionate about this, and this could be a win-win if you place me in this role with these kinds of implications, this is the impact it can make. How can we tackle all of these problems and to communicate everything in a win-win a methodology and think creatively in that way?" There's a whole arc to that, a lot of tactics as well with the best alternative to the negotiated agreement, the shadow negotiates, there's all that realm that your listeners can look into. But again, there is this element to, the more I work with executives, the more I value and seek growth, and the art of communicating. And I think that has been one of the biggest differences in my ability to grow in the career that I have, as well as giving me the confidence to move into this career pivot. And I think it will be a big part of how I'm able to help my clients moving forward.

Tracie:

That is really a perfect note to end on as we think of negotiating, and as we think of how we're best going to provide value and how we're going to share the pie with other people. So that's a terrific thought to end on. Thank you all for listening. Your call to action today is to shoot me an email at tracie@traceabilitycoach.com, or if you would please go to either Apple or Spotify, leave us a review. I'd love to hear from you and see what you think of the podcast. So Jonathan Lo, thank you so very much for being with us today.

Jonathan:

Thank you, Tracie. I enjoyed my time here. Appreciate it.

Tracie:

Really appreciate it.