S3 E2: Featuring Emal Bariali

Tracie:

Hello everyone and welcome to Traceability podcast. I am your host Tracie Edwards. Today, I'm so fortunate to have my good friend, Emal Bariali, back with me. Emal is a seasoned senior business analyst and business architect. So, we may end up discussing that business architect role a little bit. He's also got extensive experience in both waterfall and agile methodologies. He's delivered nearly 20 projects and he holds a master's degree in information systems, a bachelor's in information technology and a post-diploma in software and database development. He is all IT through and through. He has also founded BABLOCKS.COM and he's now teaching the next generation of analysts and IT professionals. So, Emal, thank you so much for being here today. Welcome.

Emal:

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Tracie:

If you follow the podcast at all, you know that we start out with talking about our career story, and so I would be interested in knowing how you got your start as a business analyst. I know that most of the analysts I talk to, business analysts is not necessarily on their mind as they graduate college.

Emal:

That's exactly right. Yeah, I think most analysts that I've met as well have been accidental business analysts, and my career trajectory has been very different from that because I've been formally educated as an analyst and I've basically been doing business analysis since 2005. So, the way I got my start was that in 1999 I enrolled into an undergraduate IT program and that IT program was very heavily centered around business and systems analysis. Did my post diploma, did my master's, got my first job, started working as a permanent employee from 2005 to about 2012. And in 2012, I decided that it was the right time to get into doing some independent consulting as a business analyst. And that's what I've been doing until November of 2022 is when I finished my last contract. Since then, I've been focusing on teaching business analysts how to do this job.

Tracie:

Fantastic. That's quite a career journey. So, as you were in those seven years in the corporate world there working for other companies, what was it that sort of prompted you to go off and do your own thing initially as a consultant?

Emal:

There were a couple of different factors. As a permanent employee, I had done enough work to learn the skills and I eventually found myself in a place where I felt like I was producing a lot more than I was being compensated. And the way that I measured that was that I could see myself really producing quite a bit more than a lot of the analysts that were at the same level of seniority in my organization, and that was probably one of the biggest factors because in my mind, getting into leadership and management wasn't really an option, I was interested in pursuing and I can explain why maybe a little bit later on, but it was something that I just wasn't interested in. My desire to increase my income and make sure that I can kind of harvest the true value of the work that I was doing, I felt like consulting was the right thing for me to do. That was probably the biggest factor, but one of the other factors was is that I was quite frankly getting a little bit bored on working on the same types of projects and the same types of organizations, and I knew that doing consulting work, as hard as it can be, would bring me a lot more variety in my career and it's done that.

Tracie:

Great. So, what was that process like as you were looking for your first clients and going off on your own?

Emal:

I'm going to say, yeah, it was a bit of a difficult one. It's never ever easy to leave behind a well-paying job and to try to start your own business in many ways because as an independent consultant you're no longer an employee of any company and you don't have any kind of guarantees in terms of income and support. So, it was a difficult one, but the process that I had to essentially go through to make that happen was that I had to set up the legal structures and everything else, so a lot of the business management that has to happen as a business owner versus being an employee. That was, I would say, probably one branch of the work that I didn't have much experience in and made things difficult for me. But business development, I quickly realized is something that is a skill that I'm going to have to build up very quickly if I'm going to be able to survive as a consultant. And I can talk more about some of the things that I've done to do that, but generally speaking, I have had to really kind of build up my business development skills to figure out how to land new clients and for the clients that I do land do my best to make sure that I can get recurring business from those clients, and that has worked out quite well for me as well. So generally speaking, that's what the process has been like.

Tracie:

So, you were obviously an engaged employee and you wanted to stay engaged and you wanted to feel good about the work you were doing. For those of us who maybe aren't ready to go off and explore a little like you did, what are some things that employees can do? Especially business analysts who really work on a lot of the tactical type projects and things, what are some things they can do to stay motivated and avoid feeling apathetic or stuck with where they are?

Emal:

But I have to speak from my own experience, I would say that I find really three different sources of motivation and it really depends on which one of those the person is at. So, the three sources of my motivation in my career have been income has been a huge one. The second one is one I think I would say is I can best describe it as just as meaning, and that meaning one I think is probably a lower priority at the beginning of the career and income is typically the higher priority. And so I mean, for the first quarter to half of my career, I was very income-driven and that motivated me a lot. And so, if you're starting to feel a little apathetic at work or if you feel like you're having a hard time motivating yourself, I think it's important for you to understand what it is that is going to motivate you. I can give you some advice, but I think everybody has different drivers and unless you know what the drivers of your motivation are, I think it's nearly impossible to find your way out of it. In this profession, I feel like I was born to be an analyst in many ways, I think my brain is just kind of wired in some ways to work in that way. So, to me, it's meaningful work, it's quite a bit of meaningful work for me to get in there and try to solve complex challenges. Part of the reason why I started teaching now is this because there is a whole new set of challenges that I have to overcome to be able to make a program like this successful. So, for me, that's constantly been the primary driver in the next stage of my evolution. For the folks who may be feeling a little bit kind of maybe worn out or apathetic in their jobs, I would say try to figure out if income is your primary driver, are you looking for more meaning in your life, in your career, what is it that you're looking for, because the steps that I would recommend would rely on me knowing what it is that's driving you. If it's income, I can give you very clear advice on what to do to try to increase your income, but I have a suspicion that most people are not driven primarily by income. And so, hopefully that gives some direction that I know it's not step by step instructions, but without knowing the person, it's a little bit hard for me to give that kind of advice.

Tracie:

Good advice though because I think really what we're talking about here is that we have to get to know ourselves and getting to know ourselves is a bit of a process, it can take some time, but we have to do the work necessary to really understand what drives us as individuals. So I would agree with you there and I have been doing a lot of that work myself over the years, especially as it comes to sustaining a career, right?

Emal:

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think you hit the nail on the head there because, I mean, I could kind of dish out some generic advice that may or may not work, it may work for one person and not for another person. The important thing I think to walk away with here is that unless you do a little bit of introspection and you understand what it is that's truly driving you, there's a high risk that you're going to find yourself in a couple of years in a place where you're not happy. And if that's the case, it usually means that you haven't done enough digging to figure out what you should be chasing after. And you'll see a lot of folks out there who have high incomes, but maybe they've just chased after that a little bit blindly thinking that it's going to make them happy and they end up 10, 15 years down the road with high incomes, but very unhappy lives. I wouldn't encourage anybody to do that, even though I think a lot of people believe that that's the primary driver. I think you should do some introspection. I've done that before, I've reached a certain level of income that I'm very happy with, but I have other drivers that are motivating me now above and beyond that, and that's how I make my decisions essentially of my career.

Tracie:

So speaking about sustaining careers and such, you began your consultancy, you're coming out of a big economic challenge at the time, and you were coming out at it during an opportune moment, I think. So what has that looked like as far as career uncertainty for you? Because one thing with working in a corporate role is oftentimes it can help us to feel very secure, we have our benefits, we have our perks, and we know what's going to be happening for us from day-to-day, and uncertainty can be a little anxiety inducing-

Emal:

Absolutely.

Tracie:

... especially in a consulting world. And then also now, as we're beginning to see a lot of layoffs happening in the tech industry in general, what are some things that we can do to work through that career uncertainty and maybe get a little comfortable with uncertainty?

Emal:

Get comfortable with uncertainty. The way I look at the concept of security is probably a little bit different than most other people do. I had published a video about it a long time ago on our YouTube channel where I talked about the concept of not job security, but career security. And I see career security as a higher form of security because when you have job security, you have a sense that you're going to have work to do and the ability to generate income on an ongoing basis, but it's usually tied to a single employer. The concept of career security is way more secure than job security because when you pick up a certain amount of skills and you lay a foundation that allows you to have options, you start to feel a level of security that I think is way deeper than one that might just be tied with single employer. And I call this career security, and career security essentially means that you build up enough skills to have the confidence that you can land work relatively easily, and it can take quite a bit of work to get there, but once you achieve it, only then I think can you really feel the level of security that I think it's a much higher level of job security. So I would say that that's my view of it. Practically speaking, I think you should focus on two things. There are really two things that can help you to get security. Number one is skills, number two is access to the right job markets. And so, my transition into consulting happened in the Greater Toronto Area, and part of the reason why that make it a little bit easier for me was because the Greater Toronto Area is probably one of the areas in North America that has the greatest demand for the skillset.

Tracie:

It's a hotbed.

Emal:

Yeah. And many folks don't know that the IOBA was actually founded in Toronto. And part of the reason why that happened is because there are a lot of big banks centered around the core area of the financial district, and those big banks had a huge vested interest in making sure that they have access to a pool of analysts that can help them do what they need to do. And so that's kind of how the IOBA got founded. But part of the reason why I've had it maybe a little bit easier is because of the fact that I've had access to that market. And I think we shouldn't ignore the fact that those are real factors. If you don't have access to a job market that has the type of work you want to do, there's no amount of skills development or anything else you can do to make up for that, you have to get access to a job market. So I've had that, combining that with my formal education and everything else that I've done, I think those two factors have contributed the greatest to my success, I'd say.

Tracie:

Talk about your decision to go for the master's degree. Was this while you were working at your first company or did you do this after you kind of broke off?

Emal:

Well, no, I did all of my education in one big block and then I started working.

Tracie:

Oh, wow, okay.

Emal:

Yeah, that's right. So, normally folks I think probably do an undergrad and then they'd go work for a while and then they do a master's. I blasted right through because my original intention was originally I think I wanted to stay in academia and to pursue further education, but in my master's program there were a couple of things that happened, but one of the things that I did was instead of going the academic route, I chose to do the consulting project instead of a master's thesis. And that really had a big part in changing my mind around pursuing the academic route. So, after that, I actually started actively pursuing work instead of more PhD level programs to apply to. And so, yeah, the original intention was to stay in academia, but I pivoted very quickly.

Tracie:

Yeah, and I think that's actually a great call out that there are times we need to maybe pivot where a certain path is either closing down or it's sending us in a direction that we're not comfortable with. And so, do you have any advice for knowing when to pivot?

Emal:

Absolutely. I would say that before even my mind is wired to plan everything out, but that's just not how reality works. And so, I've found through experience that you don't truly understand your options until you got far enough in to see what's really there. And so, the first step in pivoting is really just getting yourself up to a certain point where you can truly understand what your real options are. So, when I was doing my undergrad for example, I looked at industry, but I had my horse blinders on and I was looking at academia, and working in the industry wasn't really an option for me until I did my master's specifically until I did that consulting project. And that's when it sunk in that, "Wait, this is an actual real option that I can do," and it's a lot more attractive to me than pursuing an academic program. So, I would say is the first step is that you should get close enough to wherever you will need to get to so you can truly see the options. And once you see them, I think you should try to do your best to overcome a fallacy that's kind of baked into our minds. So that fallacy being what's they typically refer to it as the sunk cost fallacy. If you've invested in something, there's a high likelihood that you're going to want to stay the course and your brain is just wired to say, "Hey, look, you've already spent seven years in academia, why would you throw that away and start something completely new?" And I think our minds are all wired that way, and you have to overcome that impulse and understand that just because you've spent time and money on something doesn't necessarily mean you have to stick that course for that reason. So, if you can do those two things, I think you're setting yourself really well for being able to pivot. So for example, I mean, look, my consulting business, I've spent the last decade building a client base and they're still asking me to come do work for them. And I'm basically just starting from ground zero again, just it's my own choice to do this, nobody is forcing me to do this. But I'm saying, I understand that I've invested all this time and effort and I'm not going to let it go 100%, but I don't see those sunk costs as something that should hold me in that route if I feel like I need to grow more. So, I start from ground zero now, learning how to launch a program, it's a completely different world than doing business analysis in a consulting or in a permanent setting, but I actively put myself in that position and I force myself to learn and to continue to grow. I mean, going back to this concept of what is your primary driver. If I was still driven, I think by income consulting is incredibly lucrative, especially in the Greater Toronto Area. And so, if that was my primary driver, I would just continue to do that, but I think I have a deeper sense of what it is that I'm looking for and that's what motivates me to push through the hard times. So, I think there's quite a few things there, but everything I think is a skill that you have to get used to by just working against some of the basic impulses of your own mind in many ways.

Tracie:

We talk of the sunk cost fallacy and we don't really want to give up on years of effort and that kind of thing, but I think there are also ways that you can leverage that experience so you don't have to stay there, but you've still got the skills that you can leverage to point you in this other direction.

Emal:

Absolutely. And look, my entire career is a perfect example of that. It's not like I'm throwing away all of my education and experience in creating this training program, I'm actually doing exactly what you just mentioned. I have all of this experience, how do I leverage this experience to do something that's going to bring a little bit more meaning into my life? And so, I think that especially in the analysis world, there are so many transferable skills that you can pick up that help you to really open up new opportunities. So, as an analyst, when I picked up business analysis skills, I leveraged that into building a consulting business. As a consultant, I learned how to do business development and I learned how to provide a really high level of service. Now I can leverage some of those skills and pair them with learning how to teach well and propel myself forward into the next stage of my own career. So, I think your point is right on the mark.

Tracie:

I think the other thing really to call out there is you have to let go of some of the fear that comes from change resistance kind of thing, and you have to believe in your skillset and believe in what you offer so that you can leverage that experience to go off and try this new direction. I think at times, we're reluctant because we can't see the end from the beginning, right?

Emal:

That's right. That's right. And fear can hold you, I mean, it's a human emotion, it can grip your mind and prevent you from doing a lot of things. Now, there's a reason why the emotion of fear exists. I mean, it's baked in because there are real risks out there, but the way I think a lot of people think about fear or how they respond to fear is just by shutting down. And I don't think that that's productive. I think it's important to really truly understand why it is that you feel fearful and think through it, what's the worst that can happen? And in most cases, when you think it through, you'll realize that your fear may have been overblown, and in some cases, maybe not, but in most cases it is, because if we're wired to really just kind of mitigate risk, I think we're going to overreact. And I've had to do a lot of this type of work in my own mind, I mean, trying to quitting a permanent job to do consulting work, there is a ton of fear that's involved in doing something like that, but I've had to really think it through, what is the worst that can happen? And I found that logically, it wasn't as bad as I was feeling emotionally, and I realized, "Okay. Well, I can work through that." So, it's a bit of a mental process that you got to work through.

Tracie:

Well, I think also as analysts, we're trained to think in terms of return on investment and uncertainty can worry you about what the return on the investment is is going to be and that kind of thing. But I agree with you learning to let go of that and learning things will work out one way or the other kind of thing.

Emal:

You'll make them work, especially if you're an analyst, I mean, it's part of our jobs. If you can't get exactly the features that you need, you'll find a workaround. And I think you have to have that kind of confidence in yourself that regardless of what happens, you should have enough confidence that you're going to be able to make it work one way or another. As long as you have that in your back pocket, I think you can tackle almost any kind of fear that comes your way.

Tracie:

Now let's maybe get down to, okay, I'm at a company, I've discovered what my motivations are and you know what, I'm really just motivated to stay here in this company, but I have to figure out a way to still grow. So, what are some of your recommendations there?

Emal:

There are a couple of things you can do, I'd say. Totally legitimate if you are happy with your employer, you're happy with your work. The world is changing a little bit so I'd recommend making sure you don't get too comfortable in any one company, but if you're in the company and you want to grow within that company, there are a couple of things you can do. Try to position yourself to move into more of a managerial role if you feel like that's a position that you want to take. There are some analysts out there who become essentially internal consultants in larger organizations. So you can move into a role where you're doing more senior level analysis work, but you're essentially working as a consultant for your own company for the different divisions and units inside your own company. I think there's a lot of different spaces to grow, especially in larger organizations. Many folks, I think, are thinking about upward mobility. And if you're interested in doing that, I'd say that you probably want to take some very specific steps to communicate and set yourself up for that. And we can dive into that if that's a bit of interest to you or anybody.

Tracie:

Yeah, I think that's something that I'm really keen on, and so, I'd love to go down that track for a few minutes. What I'm keen on is, and I wasn't as keen on it when I was younger in my career, maybe I had a little trepidation, maybe I wasn't as mature in my thinking and that kind of thing, but something I'm really big on now is making sure I'm having regular conversations with my manager to say, "This is what I'm looking to do here."

Emal:

That was going to be, I would say, my number one tip because a lot of folks do hard work and they think that they just expect to be noticed without making it explicit that they're looking to grow. And I think that that's a mistake. If you are looking to grow inside your organization, I think you have to make that clear. And the best way to do that, I would say, is to let your manager know that you feel like you're not at your full potential. I think that's probably the most productive way of communicating that to say, "Look, my job is relatively easy, doing more of the same isn't really going to solve my braving to grow." And if you let your manager know that you're looking to do higher value work, that I think is probably a critical first step that you have to take, because without that, your manager might not know, they might think you're perfectly fine doing a good job in your organization relatively effortlessly, and you're not looking to grow. So make it explicit, have a conversation with your manager and just let them know that you don't feel like you're at your full potential and what it might take for you and the organization to work together to bring you to your full potential. A lot of managers are constantly thinking about succession because typically people retired, people move to other organizations, and those types of opportunities are always opening up. When it comes to looking at succession in an organization, there are people that are identified just by the fact that they are positioning themselves well, and I think you have to be a little bit clever in how you position yourself in the organization so that you're the person that is top of mind when the time for succession or an opportunity to move into a new position comes up.

Tracie:

So, as we explored that, how do I figure out where I'm going here kind of conversation? We know that the tech world has changed a lot in the last 10 years and is changing much more quickly than previously. We had methodologies like waterfall, we've had agile and those different types of methodologies, but also just the technology is changing and it's opening up opportunities in data, it's opening up opportunities in architecture and product and all these different areas. Have any thoughts on how we can maybe figure out which new thing might be the thing for us to explore?

Emal:

Yes, I do have very strong opinions, in fact on, I believe, where things are going and what analysts should be doing. AI I think is probably the latest and greatest thing, and in the IT industry, there tends to be a lot of buzz. Unfortunately, agile is one of these concepts that's been around forever, it's gotten way more attention than I think it deserves because in the enterprises it's not as relevant as it is in startups, but you can still go agile in an enterprise, but not the same way that it's taught in Scrum, let's just say for an example. So we can part that for another conversation. But AI I think is very different because I've had the opportunity to test it and do some research and development from a business analyst point of view. And I think that this technology probably has the potential of helping analysts remove a lot of the, I like to call it grunt work that you would have to do, especially when it comes to data-related things. So, trying to learn how to master AI, I think, is critical to offload some of your analytical work onto there. And with the time and resources, it frees up for you, you need to learn how to manage your relationships and with your stakeholders because the one thing that AI is never going to be able to do for you is stakeholder management. Internally in most organizations, you have decision makers who need help making decisions. It's very unlikely that within the next five to 10 years that they're going to go directly to the AI, they're going to rely on folks like us to help facilitate those decisions, and they're going to expect us to know how to leverage AI to give them what they need. And so, make sure you're up-to-date with the latest AI tech. We're partnering with another consulting company coming out of the UK to be able to do research and development to help business analysts stay at the cutting edge. So we're doing research on ChatGPT and Microsoft's Copilot to make sure that we identify the use cases that are going to help you do better work. So I would say that if there's one thing you're going to do, don't stick your head in the sand when it comes to AI, this one isn't just the FUD.

Tracie:

Right. Well, and I think there's different ways to look at AI and what AI can help us accomplish. There's the ChatGPT and there that kind of comes along with that, but there's also things like robotic process automation, which is a different type of doing things, and that's a little more, one, that's dealing with efficiencies and improving processes and that kind of thing.

Emal:

If you're looking to specialize in a specific area, I mean RPA, the robotic process automation is one area you could specialize in. Regardless of what you do, I would say don't ignore AI because it's ability to actually do an overhaul on a lot of existing technology, I think, is quite high. If you're going to specialize, my guidance on that would be to specialize as much as you can by domain more than system. What that essentially means is that if you want to provide more value for your customers and your clients, learn about their business activities and their business processes and try to be a little bit too agnostic if you can. Now, that's one strategy. There's another total different strategy where we say, "No, just go learn Salesforce and become a Salesforce business analyst." That's also a perfectly legitimate strategy. Now, there are trade-offs between these. In my own career, I've avoided getting sucked into one domain or one system, and I've remained as a generalist. As much as I can, that's my strategy. Most folks that ask me about what they should be doing for their own careers, I tell them, I say, "You should probably specialize, learn a domain." Because once you understand the domain, you can step up to the plate and you can provide a lot more value to your customers way more quickly because you understand their world. And you've seen a sales process in one company versus another company, you can give them that kind of guidance when you start to specialize by domain. If you specialize by system, you're getting even deeper into that and you're saying, "No, no, I know how to help you configure and structure your processes in Workday or in Salesforce or in SAP." So there are trade-offs, I've chosen to remain a generalist, but if you want to specialize, make sure you're specializing in something that has a future and there are some technologies that have a clear future.

Tracie:

What would you say about industry specific? Like say, I'm going to stay in banking for the rest of my career, or I'm going to stay in healthcare the rest of my career.

Emal:

I would say that it's a totally legitimate strategy to do that because as long as you choose an industry that has staying power, so in Canada, financial services, energy. I mean, if you are in the US, if you're in Texas, look, the energy sector is not going away anywhere. If you are on the Eastern Seaboard, New York area, financial services isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Make sure you're choosing an industry that has staying power if you are dedicating your career to that. I think that there may be a tendency to try to jump on the latest and greatest to stay on the cutting edge. I oftentimes advise people to do the opposite to say, "Have you thought about specializing in HR?" It's probably not the glossiest or the most attractive when it comes to excitement, HR isn't really going to go anywhere, finance isn't going to go anywhere, have you considered specializing in those areas? Because if you specialize in finance, I mean, you have a career for life. And so, I think folks should consider all of their options. If you're going to choose banking, you're going to choose energy, just make sure you have access to the markets that are going to give you consistent work in that area.

Tracie:

As we begin to wrap up, what's next for you, especially as you're now growing your training company and the training offerings?

Emal:

What's next I think is I'm dedicating quite a bit of my time and effort in making sure I can teach other folks how to do this job well. I would say I'm looking out five to 10 years, even from now, and I may get back into consulting in the next little while. So, I have a couple of options, but I think serving my current clients is an option for me, but making sure that I can at least share some of the knowledge that I've picked up since 2000 when I started to learn this material, I think those are my two big goals in life for about the next decade or so. So, I'll be doing a combination of both over the next 10 years.

Tracie:

Great. And I know we've talked about this offline, but I think we both sort of feel the need to give back to the BA community and to make sure that we're helping the current generation, but also the next generation to understand the lifelong type of career kind of thing.

Emal:

Absolutely. And I think once you reach a certain level of seniority, your motivations do change, and it does become more about, how can I share my knowledge? How can I share my knowledge with folks who may be struggling in trying to build their careers? Because I've gone through everything that they're likely going through today when it comes to their careers, and there's a ton of value for that. For people who are just starting out their careers, I think they're too far away from this way of thinking to really understand what that motivation is. But I think people should just know that once you reach a certain point in your career and you feel like you've done everything, really sharing your knowledge does become a big priority for you because there's a lot of meaning in it. Absolutely, absolutely. I've hit that stage now, and so I get the sense that you yourself have as well.

Tracie:

I have hit that stage. Yes, I have.

Emal:

That's excellent.

Tracie:

And grateful that we're able to collaborate a little bit and spread that message. My last segment, I like to call parting shots. So, do you have any parting shots for us before we sign off for today?

Emal:

I would just summarize our conversation, truly understand what drives you, and if it's income, that's totally legitimate, just know that that's what it is, so that in five years when you pursue it, you're happy with the results.

Tracie:

And that is a great way to end today's conversation. So thank you, Emal. So always enjoy speaking with you and such a pleasure to have you on Traceability.

Emal:

My pleasure. Thank you.

Tracie:

All right. For my listeners, thank you for joining us for this conversation today. As a request, I would like to ask that be sure to give us a review, we are on Apple and we are on Spotify. If you like the show, give us a review and some feedback, we'd love to hear what that is, and I'd love to hear from you in general, so if you have any questions or comments for me, you can reach me at tracie@traceabilitycoach.com. If you'd like to reach out to Emal, you can do that through his site BABLOCKS.COM. We'd love to hear from you, and we'd love to get the conversation ends going and see what we can do to help you in the next phase of your career. So, thanks everyone. Thanks, Emal.

Emal:

Take care.