S5 E7: Featuring Trevor Alexander

00:00:00 Tracie Edwards: Hello everyone and welcome to Traceability podcast. I am your host Dr. Tracy Edwards. My guest today is Trevor Alexander. Trevor is a seasoned UI UX designer with over 18 years of hands-on experience shaping digital products, leading teams, and navigating the often unpredict predictable terrain of the tech industry. He's played pivotal roles from product designer to director of product at three startups that went on to successful acquisitions. Uh he's the creator of the ugly design career, a platform that challenges the conventional advice given to designers. uh instead of uh obsessing over portfolios or perfect case studies, he helps UIUX professionals build resilient, unbreakable careers through unconventional tactics like designing through ambiguity, forging strong alliances with developers and redefining what the best really means. Trevor's also just released a new book titled An Ugly Design Career where he shares the strategic moves that helped him thrive and shares how other designers can do the same even in a noisy competitive market. So Trevor Alexander, thank you so much for being with us today. Trevor Alexander: Oh, thanks so much for the lovely intro. 00:01:35 Trevor Alexander: Really appreciate it. Honor to be here today. Tracie Edwards: Well, um let's go ahead and and jump right on in. Uh you and I are both very interested in um career longevity and uh out of the gate, you talk about building an unbreakable design career and and wondering what that means to you and and why that's important. Trevor Alexander: Yeah, I think uh you might define a breakable career as smooth sailing or when everything is going just perfectly, jobs are plentiful, it's easy to get hired and it becomes like a buyer market per se or perhaps a sellers market you might call that one. See, an unbreakable career for me is something that is more founded, something that is really rooted in people and networks and a showcase of value that you've given to other people. So that even in a downturn when some one thing ends, there's other people just lining up to try to work with you. And for myself like the having some nice case studies or having like a beautiful beautiful portfolio becomes table stakes in a difficult market because everybody has some really nice design work or greata case studies. 00:02:44 Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Mhm. Trevor Alexander: So why are you different and how are you helping others so that they feel amazing about you and cannot work wait to work with you again. And I think that type of situation is what I would more define as an unbreakable design career. Tracie Edwards: That makes great sense. Um, you know, I'm a firm believer in the power of the network and, uh, you know, you obviously have your skill set, but it really takes the network to to help you, uh, have that unbreakable career and and uh, helps you uh, show the value that um, you provide to your network kind of thing. Trevor Alexander: Yeah, I always I always think what I always like I love the word network, but I do like to contextualize it with I believe there's the famous Maya Angelou quote is people forget what you do, what you said, Tracie Edwards: So, Trevor Alexander: what you wrote, but nobody will ever forget how you made them feel. And when we talk about network for me that quote really rings true because it's not just I once worked with John and now I'm a connection with him on LinkedIn and we did a project together. 00:03:47 Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Mhm. Trevor Alexander: If you meaningfully at some point helped John then he will try to help you much more in future. So, you know, the one the slight little asterisk I put on network is meaningful connections with people because you've, you know, you've cared and you've tried and you've genuinely helped them. Tracie Edwards: Thank you for Thank you for pointing that out. So, what are some common myths uh particularly as it relates to UIUX that that you think sort of limit that unbreakable career? Trevor Alexander: Yeah, I think uh one of my favorite ones to say and this is I don't want to say shocking. I don't want to float my own boat too much. But the one the one I do like to push back on and you'll see this you'll see the most surprise from newer UIUX designer is that the user so the user of whatever thing that you're designing the user is not the most important person and that and that stop it's like but everything I've learned like we have to improve the metrics and see what they want and do interviews and really dissect exactly how we can help them. 00:05:06 Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: And the the counter case I give is that if we give out a survey and people like what we've built 10% less but profits go up 100%. That's a massive win. Like that's because look at the end of the day unless those users are paying us it's not actually a valuable transaction. Now, there's there's nuance there, of course, because if you just making them hate your stuff and doing that, they're not going to want to be with you either, of course. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Mhm. Trevor Alexander: But because that's almost um a cliche there in that sense, like what you should be focused on is business value. Like you are not the white knight for the user. You are an individual working with individuals trying to undertake a series of goals that are going to benefit the business. And I think it that tends to help better set somebody's desires and like how they're going to approach their work when they stop thinking so much that they're this valiant savior of the individuals who are using the app 00:06:01 Tracie Edwards: What happened? Trevor Alexander: as opposed to a member of a team that is trying to achieve something great. So, you know, that's one of those things I always kind of push back on where the user is not the most important person for a UIUX designer. Tracie Edwards: So what does that look like uh going into the the conversations with the business and with the users? Trevor Alexander: Of course. Tracie Edwards: How do you sort of balance that so that you're getting sort of value on both ends? Trevor Alexander: Yeah, that I think it always starts with what the business is trying to achieve. So you'll usually start with a we want to increase revenue, we want to increase time on site, we want to, you know, reduce tickets. You know, take your pick. Like at some point the designer is trying to achieve something and that becomes the you know north star that becomes like the lighthouse we're going towards and then within that context we're going to try to make the experience as smooth and easy as simple and joyful as possible for the user. 00:07:06 Trevor Alexander: But the the one the slight flipping on the head is that like we're not we're not going to sacrifice the goal for the sake of the user. Like everything is going to be marching towards that goal. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: And if there has to be perhaps a sacrifice like users love this feature, but it loses us money every month and it's affecting everything else. And if we keep it, we're going to negatively impact the business. So in fact, we'll need to sacrifice that. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: People are going to be upset. We're going to lose some users, but like we can't keep it because the business will fail. And if we fail, we're also not serving any users, right? So So that's where there's this push and pull to it. It's it's just like a a radical refocusing on our co-workers and our business in that like you know design is it's a service. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: We are servicing servicing the business. We're not just producing something pretty that like a painting people will purchase like it's a real service and accordingly that's how you I I feel flip the narrative and that's where you start from. 00:07:52 Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Got it. So, as you say, it's not always about making everything pretty. Um, and we're seeing a lot of shift in current design trends and that kind of thing. I think Gen Z is having a tremendous impact on the design world right now and folks of my generation may not enjoy that quite as much. Trevor Alexander: Mhm. Tracie Edwards: So, um, how do you do you sort of, um, manage the the keeping up to date when there's all of these new tools, um, Dolly and and, uh, these other design trends? Trevor Alexander: Yeah. Yeah. Of course. had I think if you really focused on I want to be careful because sometimes the words kind of blend into each other. Uh but the the idea of craft and competency in the sense that you are able to take a series of desires and goals and turn it into something that's usable that achieves like a goal like you know you take a desire and turn it into a goal and you push it through. You have a capability to empathize with the user and understand them from their vantage point and and craft for them something that's going to achieve the goal because you know okay this person will use this and it'll work for that and then craft as far as just understanding that this looks better than this you know like this works better than this just like an innate deep understanding of it. 00:09:25 Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Mhm. Trevor Alexander: So, and honestly from that like there nothing beats reps. Basically, this is like going to the gym. It's just constantly designing, designing more, building, releasing things, trying it, testing it, and understanding what actually works. In my opinion, what that builds is just this deepseated ability to design and understand to help people build things. And the way that helps future proof is um I've been recently doing a lot of mentorship with kind of u either young builders or young designers UIUX and they will present stuff that they've done with AI. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: Okay, great. That's a tool like when I started it was Photoshop and then it was Illustrator and then it was Adobe Sketch and then it was Adobe XD. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: Now it's Figma. I can't tell you what it'll be in two years, but it's never mattered because you have this core capability, this craft, this this something that you can speak to that whatever the tools are, it you can then serve Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: that to you can serve people using the tool with that innate value that you can bring. 00:10:34 Trevor Alexander: So the best that I can say is just like continually working and releasing and building and practicing so that when AI is able to do the designs for us, those with that kind of design ability are going to be able to best use the AI tools that result in like the greatest looking designs that actually help business achieve goals. Tracie Edwards: Yeah, I I agree with that. So, um you know, my take on AI is is more that it's a as you say, it's a tool. it it doesn't uh uh take the work from us, but it gives us an ability to maybe flavor the work or um put a different spin on something that maybe we hadn't considered. Trevor Alexander: Yeah. Tracie Edwards: So, Trevor Alexander: Last thing I might say is just the and and this one I'll kind of at some point somebody needs to sit down with themselves and really appreciate how do what do I want to do? Who do I want to be? And depending on that, maybe your fight's going to be a little bit more difficult, but if that's what gets you up in the morning, you go for it. 00:11:38 Trevor Alexander: From my vantage point with the way AI is going, I feel like there's going to be more value with generalists as opposed to those who want to just burrow down into one particular lane. An example I've been kind of giving lately is there was an entire crop of UX designers. So, people who could craft the experience, but they couldn't design. so they can make anything look good or work with a development team. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: My problem for when I mentor folks is like I know all the UI designers that I know can do UX pretty well. None of the UX people can do UI. So what you're trying to do as a as a UX job is like you basically are telling them, oh well, you have to hire somebody else also because I can't do half the work. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: So in a place where AI is coming up and these tools are going to enable us to do so much more I feel like narrowing yourself it's it's either that you find the a field that'll be narrow that will not be encroached upon that you can go in wonderful or otherwise you allow some generalities so you can go a little bit wider and provide a bigger net of value for those that you work with. 00:12:47 Tracie Edwards: Right. Um, so speaking of of maybe going beyond the portfolios, um, focusing on the value that you can provide, what are some things that uh, today's designers should maybe be investing in to help them sort of stay revalent uh, relevant and up to-date? Trevor Alexander: Yeah. So, I'd suggest reading um business books and and some of the classics. So, you know, the the effective executive, getting to Yes. How to win friends and influence people like some of like the old stalwarts or some of the more recent ones. But I say that in a way because I assume as a designer, you're designing, you're doing tutorials, you're practicing, like you're getting better at that. Again, that kind of becomes the table stakes. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: Of course, you design well. Unless you're in the top 1%, you're probably not going to be hired alone for your design ability. So, what is where does the rest lie? And if you can speak to business, if you can understand different departments and how they might view what you're building and how you're doing, if you can work with their language, you can see how much more valuable you can be. 00:13:55 Trevor Alexander: So if anything, it's in some ways to go beyond the portfolio, appreciate what the how the business works, sales, marketing, um support, development, like understand these areas a bit more so that you try not to just come in as a paintbrush on top of a and instead like you're a cog in a wheel like you're a cog in the machine that can really help get the whole thing turning and moving. So, so I really think a focus on business and how to help other disciplines within the organization is is really a value ad for a designer. Tracie Edwards: Yeah, I completely agree. Um, you know, we need to understand the purpose of what it is that we're doing and and um how that uh impacts people. And so, um, you know, sometimes we also get really into the thick of things and and the minute details. Um, but that doesn't always help us with maybe more strategic type of uh work kind of thing. So, are there some things that designers can do to help them sort of um see things more strategically while still being able to to stay in the details? 00:15:10 Trevor Alexander: Yeah, I like to say don't let the details get in the way of the big picture. And and I think in a some way you build your own confidence around I will be able to solve like the tiny things. So while we have an audience with each other, let's focus on the big stuff and I'll figure it out. what what you know often you'll get into a big meeting everybody's kind of talking and throwing ideas around how can we what are some options and then you know designer wants to put up his hand it's like well Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: we don't use a 24 pixel rounded corner we use a 12 so we should consider that it's just such a buzzkill to to what we're trying to solve right it's like assume that like okay like we'll be able Tracie Edwards: Yeah. Trevor Alexander: to that'll come out in the wash let's focus on the type of stuff um you know so I think between reading those books understanding how business goes and then a true desire and empathy with the other stakeholders from Tracie Edwards: Mhm. 00:15:54 Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: other departments. So you know I've often said with for instance like a in order to be better trusted by the developers the best thing you can do is work with them to make their lives easier and then you'll be sought out because people know that you're good and worth it and reasonable. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: If you can make a change to the design that saves them six months of work that's a fantastic decision. So it and it's just even strategically because then it it gets out of the way to try to deliver. So it's really just up, you know, like upscaling your thinking beyond how can I output this page or this user flow to why are we doing this and everybody that we're trying to solve for this like what are their aims that I can try to help achieve and you just start to really you know increase your influence Tracie Edwards: So what's the role of storytelling in in this? You know, typically a designer will come in with their portfolio. They'll come in with their case study and uh the case study explanation is usually well, we did this and that. 00:17:10 Tracie Edwards: Um maybe talk about what's the story that we're trying to tell um as we're trying to ensure that the career um that that unbreakable career Trevor Alexander: Yeah, I mean with case studies and what you're trying to convey that they kind of start there and then move to unbreakable. Uh some common advice I'm always given is re like for empathize with the user which is funny because that's like the core of it but for some reason when we do case studies all the ones I'm reviewing like Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: it just throws it out the window and we I I'll sit down and we'll walk through it and it's like how much of this are you actually reading? Like am I going to read 20 paragraphs about this and then synthesize it? Can you not help me? Because who am I? I'm a I'm a hiring manager. I'm on a Windows PC, a Thinkbook that my work gave me. I have five minutes to review what you've done because I have a hundred submissions for this job. 00:18:05 Tracie Edwards: That's nice. Trevor Alexander: And your suggestion is that I read this like book like a war in peace version of a case study because you want to be super thorough. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: Help me, the user who's reading your case study, what do I need to know? So often like for for me it's always like you know I I often say say the punchline and then explain the joke. So they arrive at the case study here's the beautiful work yes I can design next here were the outcomes like here's how here's what happened because of this we reduced churn rate by 20% and we increase profit by 20 and it's like oh wow there was an impact what you what was then the role and then we'll talk then let me talk through it thoroughly if you have the time. So it's just flipping it on its head like like be empathetic to the in your case studies like it is storytelling. It's performative. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: It is the Steve Jobsian turn around you have very few minutes. 00:19:06 Trevor Alexander: You need to hook them, capture them and convey to them exactly the story beats that you want so that ultimately they want to talk to you because again even even there what's the point like what's the purpose of the case study is that they contact me for a job. So when you look when again when you rephrase it it it just uh better helps like narrow it the focus and it's funny because I think just in the craziness of trying to put put together a case study which is very difficult we often get so inundated with the steps and the process that we forget the purpose which is to get hired. Tracie Edwards: Right. Mhm. Trevor Alexander: So what can we do to help those that get hired? Um sorry there there was a second part that you'd asked I wanted to get to one was around the case study um ah perfect yeah that so when you start to learn the two parts Tracie Edwards: And and how does that really help you to um get to that sort of unbreakable career? 00:20:06 Trevor Alexander: of that I think become relevant and one is again the empathy where when you understand what the bizdev manager wants what the sales manager wants and taking that in as input as opposed to a narrow focused on just a user like you become so much more valuable that th all those individuals whenever they go off to other organizations will want to bring you in like somebody that's not in the design angle but the head of sales said hey I know somebody who did great design and he helped me so much with XYZ bring them in for an interview like there's your referral there's there's your network because you helped them right so that empathy on Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: it and um so so that helps with the break and then just The storytelling of it is an ability to describe, talk, present, and be able to convey ideas and concepts and break it down for people is an unbelievable skill. Like one of my most suggested recommendations for people I mentor is take improv classes be- because everything about improv is something you don't know what's h you don't know what's coming in and you have to yes and that 00:21:06 Tracie Edwards: So interesting. Trevor Alexander: idea and keep it rolling. So it creates this like natur it works your muscles so that you're able to roll with the punches you're able to bounce you're able to like jump and move. So in these set of meetings, you're not you don't have to follow a set script. Well, it's like, well, first we do a double diamond discovery process and then we'd follow this. Instead, it's like, oh no, something's needed on Friday. Okay. Um, let's do this. Okay. Yes. And and we move there. So, an ability to like Bob and we even move with the flow of business really helps. And then be able to tell a story. The other the second one is going to toastmaster practicing how you speak, how you present so that you become this calm, capable, reasonable person who's able to describe an idea and hold court to be able to describe it. It just really helps. You pair that with your innate design ability and everything else you've now learned about business. 00:22:11 Trevor Alexander: That's that's a heck of an individual in my opinion. Tracie Edwards: It it definitely is and and you've kind of um really spoken to this already that it's it's how we differentiate um how we sort of wow the person when we come in for the interview or the consultation, right? Trevor Alexander: Mhm. 100%. Yeah. Like it it just can never be overstated. An ability to have somebody listen to you, tell a story, get across what you want to, have them understand, empathize with them. Absolutely. It goes so far. Tracie Edwards: So, say I'm a designer and I've been um maybe I'm at my midcareer. Um I've mostly been executing on different designs and and that kind of thing, but I maybe wanting a little more. I'm wanting to expand into potentially a more strategic role or more of a leadership role. Um, what are maybe some of the skills or the the habits that the the mid-career or young career designers should start building. Trevor Alexander: Yeah, I wor I start sound like a parrot because a lot of the same it kind of keeps back kind of the core ideas that I think help. 00:23:23 Trevor Alexander: But I'll start with a new one. So I I might have alluded to it a bit before. I've I always really like the idea of circle of influence. So So this comes from Steve Kov, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: When mentoring people, what they say is, you know, this this I've had I've literally had this conversation with people I've either mentored or even uh was managing. It's like I I want to have more say at the table for where the product goes. I'm like, okay, great. Uh, how are the button alignments going? Did you fix it? No, I haven't done that yet. But I want to be able to help with strategy. Okay, but like we really need this like that pattern fixed, right? And finished. Yeah. Yeah, I'll get to that. But I really want to help with strategy. So, what Steve Kovi says is that the you imagine a large circle inside the circle is a small one. 00:24:11 Trevor Alexander: The small one is what you call your circle of influence. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: And that that's spec that's the stuff you have to do. That's your jobs. Those are your roles and that's everything else. That's what you have actual influence over as in please do me A, B, and C. Like you want to do F, but right now you control A, B, and C. So what he suggests, and I' I've found this in my own career honestly, is that if you pour tremendous effort, care, time into A, and C, what you've been given control of, what you get control, get given control of starts to grow. Because what that starts to do is like, okay, every time I give this person something, they knock it out of the park. They give it such attention and they're coming at it from all these different facets and ways I didn't think about. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: Let me also give them this. Let me also give them this. And next thing you know, like that circle expands. 00:25:05 Trevor Alexander: But by pouring energy into what you have control of, what you have control over grows. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: As opposed to what I would call wasted energy, like casting it out to the other side where I want more control. It's like great, so does everybody. Instead, focus on what you do have and let that grow. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. And I might say that uh both sort of need to happen, right? So I need to I need to verbalize, hey, I'm interested in more, but at the same time, I need to really um as you say, knock it out of the park with the things that I've already got. So, I I think um we need to sort of balance that that I' I've expressed an interest and now I'm going to do my best so that we can continue having the conversation about expressing my interest kind of Trevor Alexander: That's that's that's a fantastic point. Tracie Edwards: thing. Trevor Alexander: I'm really glad you brought that up because what because what I might what the slight twist on it I might give is again this this helps when you really do have empathy which designers should be just exploding with when you're talking to the manager. 00:26:13 Trevor Alexander: If the request is I want a promotion, it's like stop it there. It's like okay, so you want more money, you want more, like fine. If instead it is, hey, I enjoy working here. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: Like I'm really excited about the mission. I would like to grow into a manager's role so I can contribute even better. What what do I have to do? like where do I where what areas am I missing and what how else can I start to like put in time that I can grow into that role so I could be considered in future and I'd be appreciate Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: any feedback or like even a weekly kind of session on it that's vastly because the first one is just a gimme gimme gimme it's like I deserve this I want this it's like okay cool the second one is Tracie Edwards: Right. Trevor Alexander: I would like to contribute more meaningfully to this entire group um but I might have some uh blind spots I'm not sure of help guide me to what I need so that I can put in the effort and grow to what I need to be and all of a sudden like that. 00:27:13 Trevor Alexander: So what you're not you're not saying hey just give it to me now. You're saying I want this. Tracie Edwards: Right. Trevor Alexander: So exactly as you said you are stating your intention to make sure that you're seen but you're also then following it up with a bit of what do I need to do to how can I put effort in Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: and show myself to be worthy of that? And then so that way they see it as like this upward trajectory as opposed to a entitled hey just I want this. Tracie Edwards: right? Um so as we well even when we're young in our careers uh design is sort of a loaded topic sometimes everybody's got an opinion on design. Trevor Alexander: Oh yeah. Tracie Edwards: So, um, you know, we're always going to sort of run into friction with different areas of the organization as we're pursuing design. So, are there some um ways of of how maybe designers can handle some of that friction and uh make those product managers and those engineers and and leaders um fans of the designer kind of thing. 00:28:15 Trevor Alexander: Mhm. Yeah. I think I think patience and humility helps a lot here. There's a really great um idea from Jeff Bezos who inside of Amazon they had a concept of disagree and commit. So the idea was if we have two opposing ideas um I don't like I don't necessarily agree with your approach but I know it's in good faith. Um so I disagree but I'm going to commit 100% and do it and then do it. And then that also kind of speaks a bit of circle of influence. What it's trying to do is that in order to alleviate friction, you're not just going to double down fight and like no, I'm right all the time and we're going to like have a drag down knuckle brawl. If there's an opportunity where okay, for this one, um I don't like your idea, but like I'm see how it might work. Let's go for it. I'm willing to put in that effort. What that does, again, it's a little bit of circle and influence again where next time this comes up and especially if it doesn't pan out and if it pans out, good for the business, great. 00:29:28 Trevor Alexander: you showed a willingness to like be a team player. If it doesn't and you show a certain amount of grace around it where it's like all right, well that didn't quite work out, perhaps we can try something different. So not a haha told you so. You suck. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: That was terrible. More of a well what we all learned that maybe that's not the best approach. Perhaps you try something different. What that means is I think people would be more receptive to your ideas in future and again like people are more willing to go to you directly to start to put it. So, one way for friction is again I'm not trying to say like lie just lie down and take it, but there's going to there's going to be opportunities where either they outrank you or more people kind of like Tracie Edwards: Right. Trevor Alexander: that idea. There'll come a time kind of like a signal where that's where the winds are blowing. And what you want to show yourself to be is like I I appreciate this. 00:30:14 Trevor Alexander: I don't necessarily agree with it, but I will do it 100% to my the best of my ability. And then you do. And then the next the next round, I think you'll start to see that reciprocated. Um a book a book I highly suggest um is getting to yes. Tracie Edwards: Oh, yes. Trevor Alexander: So yes it is it is phenomenal. Tracie Edwards: That's a great one. Trevor Alexander: Yeah, I read I read it early in my career and it's been so beneficial like so it's how to negotiate without giving in, you know, and it gives some ideas around like it gives one example where like you you have a difficult spot. One idea is to write it on the board and then join the person you're kind of fighting battling with on the same side of the table because that is a physical manifestation of what the actual situation is where it's like we're not we're not against each other. we're on the same side fighting this problem. And so it it's that type of thinking and the book is just a gold mine for that type of stuff. 00:31:10 Trevor Alexander: But those type of books around where you're specifically looking for negotiation tactics that again this is not abdication. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: This isn't giving in lying down. It's just more clever ways to try to get your ideas heard without stamping your feet and telling others no. Tracie Edwards: And that really um provides the designer with uh credibility uh when those conversations are are going to be continuing. um that they feel like uh the designer has bought in, the designer has empathy for what they're saying and and that builds the credibility and then that builds your circle of influence. Trevor Alexander: Yeah. One of my So, one of my more favorite ones I also saw was uh I'll just mention this as a last throwaway. That's a one of the greatest ways to get rid of somebody is to get them promoted. So because if you have like a really difficult manager or someone else like above you, the getting them fired is n impossible, right? In some ways it's almost easier to get them promoted. So if you work with them on their ideas and have things succeed and just get them kind of like punted off into some part of the organization, they can go fail somewhere else and meanwhile you take their role and it's all the better. 00:32:26 Trevor Alexander: So, it's just an extra little tactic where it's it's almost like positivity to the point of uh positivity to destroy your opposition inside of a business as opposed to just trying to get them booted. Tracie Edwards: Right. So, and we've talked a lot about this already, but um you know, uncommon approaches to career building, uh developing that that empathy, um going through some of the literature and and maybe Trevor Alexander: Yeah. Tracie Edwards: thinking about career building a little differently. So, any more examples of of tactics or things that you think designers overlook? Trevor Alexander: Yeah, I generally think it's unless I mentioned it a little bit, but I'd like to dive in a bit further. Like the unless you are in the top 5% of all designers in the world, and I'm certainly not, so I can say that with certainty. Um, you're not going to get hired for your design talent. So, but there's a lot of other stuff in your control that you can do. And one of the greatest I think is tenacity. I I think tenacity beats talent every day of the week because a B+ designer beats an A+ designer when the A+ designer like refuses to work. 00:33:47 Trevor Alexander: The other like the quote I think it's from a coach like hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. But a that tenacity to see you get handed a task and you are like a dog on a bone. You are not going to stop until it's done. the number of times we've worked with individuals and anybody listening and yourself Tracy I'm sure can recall working with somebody and it's like ah I couldn't get it done didn't work and it's like that that's not a great Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: experience as opposed to someone it's like I I found a different way like I was able to bring in this other spot and I was you know I was able to connect this thing I was able to get it done not perfect but like we needed to get it done and it's finished that won't quit attitude that tenacity that ability to just keep showing up and delivering as hard as you can I think outshines s most Tracie Edwards: Yeah. Trevor Alexander: anything else because more than anything like you want to be part of a team of people you can rely upon to do great things. 00:34:38 Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: So you know more more than just again I I worry sometimes designers put together beautiful work and think that hey we're done here as opposed to that stick tuitiveness to sit there and see that the job is completed. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: I of you know I see that manifest in testing as a one of one of the biggest things I did through all the startups is I would stay late with the developers when they had a deployment you know if if I could do nothing else except get them coffee and food I would do that because they're trying to build what I designed I felt a certain ownership and desire over that and then they'd release something I can test it I can go on the site and I can click things and try to break it and report back. In fact, I'm probably the best person to do it because I understand the user and I didn't build it. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: So, you can you can apply. So, that it's it's it's not just completing your work and throwing it over the fence. 00:35:31 Trevor Alexander: It is that stick tuitiveness and tenacity to see it through so that it actually succeeds even if it overlaps parts that quote unquote aren't your job, right? Tracie Edwards: Right. Mhm. Trevor Alexander: And again, and then you look at the entire host of people you might hire. that's the kind of person you want on your team, you know, and and I think that is how that that's more the uncommon approach, which is basically to say the stuff outside of design that showcases you to be the best designer for the team. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Yeah, and I would just add to that that um you know as we go into a career um you know oftentimes we're not thinking that how am I going to sustain this for the long term? uh how am I going to continue working and delivering and what's that really going to look like and what do I have to do to ensure that that can happen and the tenacity the grit the um the you Trevor Alexander: Correct. Tracie Edwards: know rolling with the punches and keep getting up kind of thing is uh so important. 00:36:38 Trevor Alexander: Yep. Well said. Like that. Love that word grit. That's perfect. Tracie Edwards: So, if a designer listening to this episode out there feels stuck or unsure about their next step, um what's maybe the first small action that that they could take to sort of help themselves um get over that that hurdle? Trevor Alexander: Yeah. Uh, build build build and design. You know, I heard it once said that um I'm not sure who to attribute the quote to, but he's talking about actors and he would meet actors. He himself was an actor. He would meet them in restaurants and it's like, "Oh, I'm I'm you know, I'm an actor." It's like, "Oh, what have I what are you acting in?" Well, nothing because you know, I'm not like H. It's like why are you not if you're an actor then you need to act. If you are a designer like what are you designing? What have you done? Like there is nothing stopping you. Especially right now in this exciting time of AI like with tools that um with Figma make that just got launched. 00:37:39 Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: You can just take your whatever you design and it will just build it for you. lovable, all these other AI tools, like just launch stuff, build stuff, design stuff, make it look absolutely amazing because I don't have a portfolio because no one gives me a chance. Like, no one's going to give you a chance until you build stuff. So, just do it your darn self. Like, design, find something that you need, build a very small version of it, but I don't I don't know how to build it. Like, then you need to figure it out. What's the what what is the smallest possible version that you can do? Use those interesting constraints to spur creativity. build it and launch it and then move on to the next. Like just go like you need the reps, you need the practice and eventually some of this stuff will start to look so good it turns into a case study that you can speak to and then it's like yeah I don't have, you know, 20 years of experience, but what I do have is a this phenomenal set of releases that I've done because I'm out here in the wild actually building. 00:38:43 Trevor Alexander: Here's a bunch of lessons that I learned. here's a bunch of like successes I had and that becomes an interesting story. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Mhm. Trevor Alexander: So I think it's don't let others define your ability to actually output something. Start outputting design, put it on dribble, put on next like start actually building, releasing products. Don't uh don't wait. Tracie Edwards: Love it. Um, and so what do you really hope that uh people feel or do differently after um this conversation? Trevor Alexander: Yeah. I just want to empower designers to empower businesses. You know, I think designers got a little bit many designers I meet seem to be a little bit stuck in performative gestures. You know, like the there's the photos of the whiteboard with all the little sticky notes and it's just they seem to love that process, but then they hate developers. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Mhm. Trevor Alexander: You know, they seem to love that process, but they hate sales. Tracie Edwards: Mhm. Trevor Alexander: And like what I what I'd like to get across is that the other designers that I have met though are hardworking and empathetic and interesting and creative. 00:39:53 Trevor Alexander: And I think there's there's so much power inside of designers that they can help businesses with to do things that they didn't know that they could if they only widen their viewpoint beyond like these little pixels and user flows and double diamonds and everything else that kind of designers get obsessed with. Like I I would just like to see a series of businesses espouse the unbelievable power that was brought to the organization by bringing in a caring, empathetic, care um strong, smart designer and how that took them to the next level. Tracie Edwards: Love it. So, Trevor Alexander, the book is An Ugly Design Career. And where can people find your book? Trevor Alexander: Yeah. So the URL of the same name either uglydesigncareer.com. What's interesting is I'm actually I'm in the process of a rewrite but what I'm doing is I'm the entire current version of the book is on the website so people can read it. I'd be very happy for them to do so. Um I'm rewriting it in real time. So as I release new chapters like I'm giving notifications and they can read the updated chap the updated items. I want to add some more chapters, a few more stories and those good things. Please check me out at an uglydesigncareer.com. You'll be able to see the current book and then watch as we update it in real time to create it make it even better. Tracie Edwards: Well, Trevor, thank you so much for being with us today. Uh it's been enlightening for me just as I think about working uh with designers and uh engineers in my career. Uh it's enlightening how all the little things uh sort of help us get to that unbreakable uh and uncommon career. So thank you. Trevor Alexander: love to hear. Tracie Edwards: Thank you so much for being with us today. Trevor Alexander: That was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Tracie Edwards: And for our listeners, uh if you like this episode, please go to Spotify or Apple Podcast, leave us a review. We'd love to hear what you think