S5 E11: Vulnerability, Practice, and the Knowing‑Doing Gap (with Margaret Andrews)

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Traceability podcast. I am your host, Dr. Tracie Edwards. Today my guest is Margaret Andrews. Margaret is a Harvard instructor, leadership expert, and author of the forthcoming book Manage Yourself to Lead Others: Why Great Leadership Begins with Self-Understanding. Her signature program at Harvard, Manage Yourself to Lead Others, has been the school’s most popular professional development course for more than a decade. Margaret is the founder of the Manage Yourself to Lead Others Center, an organization dedicated to improving the craft of leadership, and Higher Ed Associates, a boutique consulting firm providing professional development programs to clients in the higher education sector. So Margaret, thank you so much. Welcome.

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

Well, let's jump right in. I'm excited about the topic of managing ourselves and wanted to understand how you made the connection between managing yourself and enabling us to lead others better. 00:01:26

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

A lot of times in leadership we talk about how to run a meeting, how to influence others, things like that — a more siloed approach. It often becomes about trying to control others. In truth, great leadership begins within. It begins by understanding yourself — your backstory, influences throughout your life, situations that changed your life, your values, how your behaviors impact others, and how well you understand and feel your emotions. Once you understand yourself, you gain a lot of insight. You can figure out where you want to be, who you want to be as a future leader, and what you need to do to get there. 00:02:27

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

That is so important. Especially as I’ve advanced in my career, I’ve strengthened my emotional intelligence and understanding of my backstory. Let’s talk about the course — the one that ended up becoming the course you teach at Harvard. What continues to make the course so impactful?

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

I think one thing that helps is the name. The book is Manage Yourself to Lead Others; the class is Managing Yourself to Lead Others. When people ask what I teach and I tell them, they immediately understand. They’ll say, “I’d love to take that class,” or “I wonder if I could get my boss to take that class.” People enjoy it because we talk about things most other classes don’t. There are no multiple-choice tests or fill-in-the-blank exams. People write reflective papers and learn about themselves. I spend a lot of time helping students get to know one another as individuals, because when people know each other personally, they’re more willing to be vulnerable — and that vulnerability helps everyone. Someone who recently read the book told me, “I don’t feel so alone now. I realize I’m human.” And that’s exactly the point. We’re human. 00:04:38

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

The class is popular because people realize the importance of what we’re discussing, and they discover things about themselves that make them better.

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

We often see our imperfection up close, while seeing others only from a distance. We forget their imperfections.

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

Absolutely. Especially when someone is “successful,” we don’t see the work it took, the stumbles along the way, or the mistakes they still make. We compare ourselves in ways that aren’t helpful. 00:05:43

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

There was a moment in your leadership career when you were given feedback about your self-awareness. Would you share that?

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

It was the origin of everything. I had been successful at a job and had a great relationship with my boss. That boss left, I got a new boss, and we didn’t gel. One day in a meeting, he said, “You’re not very self-aware.” It wasn’t developmental. It felt accusatory. I was shocked; no one had ever said anything like that to me. When I calmed down and thought about it, I realized there was truth there. I’d had good results, but I could be hard-charging. Some people on my team were afraid of me, and my relationship with my boss wasn’t good. Those signs pointed toward him being right. That moment started everything. I didn’t want that to be the end. So I began learning from anyone and anything I could — and landed on the principle that you have to understand yourself first. 00:08:23

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

Many people would react defensively and want to leave. But you leaned into growth instead of withdrawing.

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

There was defensiveness. But when feedback surprises you or you disagree with it, that’s when you should pay attention. Feedback may come in ugly packages, but it’s still a perspective you didn’t have. 00:09:50

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

What were some key lessons you took from that feedback?

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

My self-image didn’t match how others saw me. I wanted those two images to align. Self-understanding is about values, backstory, and emotional courage. Looking back on your life means facing things that are embarrassing, painful, or traumatic. But everything in your life has shaped who you are — and you still have agency. A quote that helped me is from C.S. Lewis: “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” 00:13:07

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

You mentioned being willing to do the work. There’s a knowing–doing gap. We know we should do things, but we don’t do them. Knowing isn’t enough. If I know I shouldn’t micromanage but I still do it, that’s the gap. You don’t get credit for knowing — only for doing. 00:14:06 Tracie Edwards: Let’s talk about misconceptions about leadership.

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

Leadership trends come and go — boldness, empathy, decisiveness, inclusivity. But effective leadership must be fit for purpose. You have to understand the situation and act accordingly. People say, “My leadership style is ____,” but no one shows up the same way in every situation. Leadership requires flexibility. 00:15:20

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

What works in one situation doesn’t always work in another.

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

Yes. You may recognize a pattern, but the situation, people, and context are different. 00:16:26

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

How can leaders build greater self-awareness?

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

Sometimes it happens when people “hit a wall.” They’ve been successful, but later in their career their strategies stop working. They try harder, but still don’t get results. That’s when they become open to change. Others learn earlier. People arrive at self-awareness for different reasons. 00:17:52

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

Does this relate to deliberate vs. accidental leaders?

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

Yes. Ambition isn’t bad — ambitious people want to lead. But some want the status without the responsibility. Real leadership means understanding different people and developing them. Accidental leaders — promoted for technical excellence — often discover leadership is a different skill set entirely. They realize the “soft stuff” is hard. 00:20:27

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

What are some roadblocks that hold leaders back?

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

I see six major ones: Not understanding yourself Not managing yourself Not understanding others Not developing others The knowing–doing gap Fear of vulnerability You can’t manage what you don’t understand. Learning new behaviors requires vulnerability — making mistakes, practicing, and being seen doing so. 00:25:55

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

That reminds me of Brené Brown — vulnerability isn’t saying “I have no idea what I’m doing.” Also, can you talk about practice?

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

Learning new behaviors follows an S-curve. At first you’re terrible. Then slowly, then quickly, you improve, and eventually plateau. People often quit when their performance dips at the beginning, because it feels uncomfortable. But discomfort is part of change. Marshall Goldsmith said, “What got you here won’t get you there.” It’s true. I had to learn to speak up more in meetings. As an introvert, it was hard. I prepared questions and points beforehand. I ruined many meetings while learning — came in too early, too late, or off-topic. But the pendulum eventually settled. That’s how learning works. Organizations need to give people time to learn. 00:34:57

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

It helps to tell others what you’re working on. They often already know — they’ve experienced it. You’re not hiding anything from them. 00:36:24

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

What helped you rebuild trust as you practiced?

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

I worked in a firm that valued developing people. When colleagues knew what I was working on, they helped and gave advice. That made a big difference. Also, if you interrupt at work, you likely interrupt at home. We aren’t as different as we think. 00:38:25

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

With hybrid and remote work, how should leadership development evolve?

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

We need stronger relationship skills. So much work is done through others, and communication varies across channels. Teams should explicitly discuss expectations — communication norms, response times, working hours, stress signals. A “user manual” exercise helps: How do you like to work? Are you introverted or extroverted? How will we know when you’re stressed? How should we support you under stress? Understanding people is essential. 00:42:03

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

As we wrap up, what’s one small action listeners can take?

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

Remember: we judge ourselves by our intentions, but others judge us by our behaviors. If you feel misunderstood, that’s usually the reason. Pay attention to your behaviors. Closing

Speaker 1: Dr. Tracie Edwards:

That is the perfect note to end on. Margaret, thank you so much for your time today. I’ve truly enjoyed our conversation.

Speaker 2: Margaret Andrews:

Thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure. Tracie Edwards: And to our listeners — thank you for joining us. If you’d be willing to leave us a review on Spotify or Apple, we’d appreciate it. Margaret Andrews: Thank you. Take care. Have a great day.