S1 E8: DAVID SABOE

Tracie:

Hello everyone and welcome to the Traceability podcast. I’m your host, Tracie Edwards, and today our guest is Dave Saboe. Dave is a business analyst, consultant and agile coach and he’s also the host of the Mastering Business Analysis podcast. He’s passionate about advancing the skills and competencies of business analysts and helping them advance their BA careers. So welcome Dave. We’re really happy to have you here today.

Dave:

Oh, thank you for inviting me. I’m happy to be here.

Tracie:

So maybe a, if we could go back to the beginning, uh, I know you’ve written about it a little bit on your website, but how did you get your start as a BA?

Dave:

Well, I think like many business analysts, I kind of got into it accidentally. In college I was an economics major, so I certainly never expected to become a business analyst. So my first role out of college was just a support role. I was working with pension plans for a financial institution and just as I started working there, I started making recommendations and I was maybe a little bit more technical savvy than some of the other folks that I work with. And little by little I started to do things that were more on the project management realm or business analysis realm. I didn’t even know it would be, it was called back then. That was the early nineties. And I never heard the term business analyst. So kind of got into it by accident there. And then in that organization we outsourced all our work to another organization in California and I went to work with them and the role title they gave me was business analyst. I actually had to look it up online to see what that actually meant. It was pretty funny. And then a little later I was searching online and found the Bay back and started reading that. So that was kind of my first introduction at the sink called business analysis.

Tracie:

That’s terrific. And as, as you say, uh, it seems like a lot of us sort of got our start that way. We, we started out in an organization and took on some necessary tasks and the, we didn’t know we were doing business analysis until somebody told us we were. So, um, what was it that sort of kept you going in business analysis? What was it about the role at the time, that really attracted you and, and why you wanted to continue?

Dave:

Yeah, that’s a great question. I think, so as a business analyst, one of the best things for me was the fact that it wasn’t a boring job. It wasn’t the same thing over and over. I had the opportunity to use my creativity and to make real lasting change in organization. And I think that’s what kept me excited, seeing the impact of what I did, being able to help people, being able to make recommendations and actually if people listen to me and follow with what I’m doing and being able to change in a meaningful way with the organization does. I think that’s what was really exciting for me and the fact that it was different every day. It was a kind of a new adventure. It wasn’t the same old thing over and over.

Tracie:

And were you sort of technically minded? Um, did you have some sort of technical skill set that, uh, kinda, um, put you into the, the BA technical space, so to speak a little bit?

Dave:

I mean, I had the basics down. I certainly didn’t know many programming languages. I think I knew basic if I can date myself that far back. Uh, but I understood tha the concepts and if I didn’t understand something I would ask questions and kind of get the basics of what I needed to know to be able to understand what other people were saying. So I wouldn’t say I was super technically savvy, but I, I knew enough to know what people were talking about.

Tracie:

Yeah. And I find that, at least in my case, the more people were willing to kind of work with me and draw pictures so to speak, and help me sort of understand from a white board level perspective. Um, that was something that really helped me, uh, kind of grow my technical mindset.

Dave:

Yeah. One of my tricks that I use a lot is even if I know what they’re talking about, I’ll, I’ll kind of play dumb. I’ll intentionally make a mistake if I’m drawing on the whiteboard just to get them up and engaged, you know, I’ll draw process flow or something like that and intentionally make a mistake and that I’ll say, does this seem right? Something doesn’t flow right here. And they start talking about what’s different and I hand them the marker and then next thing I know they’re up there and the entire team is up there collaborating and engaging where I knew the answer, but I wouldn’t have gotten that engagement if I had just said, here’s the way it works.

Tracie:

I love that. That’s a wonderful trick. I’m going to need to add that one to my toolbox. From a collaboration perspective, as you’re kind of growing within the role, where there any thing’s going on in the organization that would frustrate you or sort of take you in a direction that you wondered if there was sort of more to what you were doing?

Dave:

Well, I, I’ve held many roles so I’ve held titles of business analysts, business systems analyst, business architect, senior level, uh, been a BA manager, I’ve been a program business analyst. So I, I’ve held a lot of different titles and I think the main thing is that the core activities remain the same. And along the way, certainly there were frustrations with disengaged stakeholders or competing priorities that we’ve all seen. There’ve been a few times, especially around technical knowledge. Getting back to your earlier question where there were certain expectations of stakeholders that I was extremely technical and my thinking was I’d rather be a little bit separated from the technical so that I could ask, uh, the, what may be stupid questions and really get people to think. So there have been times where I’ve debated should I be more technical, should I pull back? And in my view, I thought as long as I could pull in the right technical people, I should be good. As long as I know enough to understand the upstream and downstream impacts and understand what people are saying, I think that’s the right level for me. So that’s really been the biggest thing where understanding what level of technical knowledge do I need to be successful in this role to help others be successful.

Tracie:

Gotcha. And I think that’s super important because it sort of grew your consultant level skills, so to speak. And, and I think that a lot of the time in organizations we may not be sort of approached as a consultant, we may be more approached as a note taker or wanting us to sort of dig into areas in certain ways and that kind of thing. And so it sounds like you were kind of growing your consulting skillset, which got you ready to sort of branch out on your own a little bit.

Dave:

Right. And the other thing, now that you said what you just said, I think the other thing that I had to deal with quite a bit is misconceptions about the role as you said, Hey, could you take notes during this meeting? That’s not my role. Here’s what I can do and here’s where I bring more value. So I think along the way the need to educate people about what the role is. And the value that you can actually bring and it’s not a note taker. It is that consultation. It is that facilitation and guidance and making sure we create valuable solutions in the end.

Tracie:

So what was sort of going on then where you decided to sort of take the plunge and start moving towards consulting on your own?

Dave:

I think it was probably a little bit out of necessity as you said. Just the experience that I had growing in my role and realizing that people come to project management offices and BA’s and say I want X implement X for me. And there’ve been a lot of projects where it really didn’t make sense. I’ve, I probably say I’ve been responsible for canceling a lot of projects just because they didn’t make sense. When I do a business case and I see this is going to cost us more money than it brings. So having that tough discussion with stakeholders and business owners about this is not the project you want, this will not bring you the outcomes you want. Let’s cancel this project and do something better. So I think that whole spirit of let’s make sure we do the right thing and the valuable thing helped kind of steer me in that direction where I can add more value if I first of all recommend that we don’t do certain things, but also act in that consultant capacity where I’m helping people to find the right answers and create things that are really valuable.

Tracie:

It can be probably easier to do that going into an organization from an outside consultant perspective rather than an internal consultant perspective.

Dave:

It, it can be. I think I, I’ve never really played at a large organization and external consultant role, but having that entrepreneurial spirit or what they’re produced “in”trepreneur if you’re in the organization, I think having that ability, and this is more on your manager and leadership team, having that freedom and ability to just go do what you think is right, create that environment where they back you up and create a safe to fail environment where you’re able to go out there and just see, Hey, what we’re doing here doesn’t make sense. Let’s re-engineer that process so that we save time, money, make a better product, let’s change this project. This isn’t the right one for us. Let’s identify better ways of working. And I think if you’re in that type of environment, it really lends itself to being creative, to doing exciting new things and really expanding your skills.

Tracie:

So what would you, maybe speaking of safety and environments and such, what would you maybe um, share with a business analyst who may not necessarily be in, in a quote unquote safe type of managerial environment?

Dave:

Yeah, that’s a really good question. And if, if we don’t take risks, we’re never going to get safety. So part of it is creating shared expectations. If they expect you to just sit in a meeting and take notes, okay, that’s one thing, but let’s have a conversation about this. Not the best way to get value out of what I do. So being really concrete about the value that you can bring in. What I mean by that is, let me give you an example. If you go to someone and say, Hey, if I can help, just let me know. Well that’s never going to happen because now you’ve put the onus on them to think about, well, I don’t know, what can you do? I, it’s too much to think about, just do what I tell you. But if we come to them and say, Hey, I noticed you’re doing this, I have experienced doing X, or I think if we did Y, it would be really helpful. Do you want me to do that? That’s a much more concrete example. And then they can just say yes or no, or maybe no, but something similar, you could do this. So part of it to me is coming up with concrete ideas, not just saying I want to do something better, but coming up with real concrete ideas and making those recommendations. And once you kind of get your foot in the door and start making those recommendations, even if they’re knocked down, those are all learning experiences. So you’re able to in that environment, reflect, adjust, and come at it next time a different way. And frankly, if you’re part of an organization where you’re always shut down, they’re saying, yeah, that is a great idea. But just do it the way I tell you frankly start looking at a new organization because that’s not one that’ll help you maximize the value that you can bring in and make it a great environment.

Tracie:

Right. I totally agree with you there. Backing up just a little bit, it sounds like really the recommendation there is to make sure that you keep your observational skills fresh and that you keep your curiosity always sort of looking around you and paying attention to things that are going on in the organization and that’s really how we can identify those things that bring us value.

Dave:

Absolutely. One of the biggest things that would be it can do is be curious and it might be where you ask someone else a question or it might be, Hmm, I wonder what’s going on here. What can I do to understand that better? It might be an assumption on my part and that assumption might be invalid, so let me be curious and find out more about this and then you’re right tuning your antenna to just being very observant about everything around you. One of the things that I always do is I notice when people get a haircut or you know where new things or just start using language differently or change your body posture. Just tuning in and observing some of those things is really important because then it, it triggers something where I wonder why they’re doing that. I wonder why they sat back and cross their arms when they said that something’s going on there. Let me dig deeper. So yeah, that that awareness and curiosity is going to be key.

Tracie:

Yeah. I saw a note on LinkedIn a few weeks ago that was along the lines of you don’t have to know everything that you have to be curious.

Dave:

Yeah. When we, when we hold an open space and an open space is a technique where there’s no set agenda. The people who attend build the agenda by here’s what I want to talk about, and they break into groups and people go where they’re interested. But one of the things we say in an open spaces, you don’t have to come with the answers. You just have to come with the questions and we’ll solve that together by a self-organizing group that really cares about that topic. So if you don’t know the answers, that’s fine, but if you can bring the questions that’s even more powerful.

Tracie:

Love it. Speaking of perhaps needing to leave organizations and such, have you run into times where you did kind of come to the realization that you needed to move on someplace else and how did that all sort of play out?

Dave:

So, in a lot of the changes that I had, it usually had to do with something going on in the organization. They might have had financial problems or you know, had to have a staff reduction and things like that. Usually it didn’t affect me, but you know, there were, there were times like that that affected a lot of BA’s and other project professionals or we, as I mentioned before, outsource the business to a different company. So I’ve been part of organizations that did do some outsourcing or had staff reductions or frankly, I just, yeah, I like to say I did all the damage that I could do with that organization and move somewhere else. Uh, but you know, I, I pretty much created some good stuff for that organization, but you kind of want to explore other things and see what else can I do good at another organization.

So, I think there have been times like that, uh, either way. And for a lot of folks out there, I know times are sometimes tough and companies are sometimes laying people off or experiencing some kind of difficulty. Every time that’s happened to me, I found something better. And I know it doesn’t always happen that way certainly, but you have to keep your spirits up and just know that I can apply my skills to a job search too and staying active. And if I’m between jobs, I can apply that to maybe a nonprofit or provide some mentoring and help someone. So I think the big thing is understanding what’s going on in your organization and the best time to look for a new job is while you have a job. So, you know, just again, being observant and keeping your options open and continuously grow your skills.

Because if you’re just maintaining the status quo, the rest of the world is passing you by and you’ve really got to keep up your skills. So joining professional organizations, reading, attend webinars, listening to podcasts like this one, they’ll help us to grow our skills and we need to be continuously growing.

Tracie:

Yeah, absolutely agree. And that is something that I’m very big on. Maybe talk just a little bit, you touched briefly on it about giving back. So as you are sort of increasing your level of success and the benefits of giving back to the community as you’re doing that.

Dave:

So, I think that whenever I’ve given back, and again, I have a free podcast that I share knowledge on. I actually own a martial arts school and I teach people there. Um, I’ve written a book, I’ve done a bunch of things, you know, webinars, things like that.

I liked speaking at conferences, I mentor people. But what I find is that even when I’m doing that kind of thing, a while, while I was on the board for the local chapter of the IIBA and other things, when I do those kinds of things, it’s not only benefiting other people, it’s benefiting me from, from many different standpoints. One, when I mentor other people or provide any kind of, um, training or coaching or even conference talks, I find that my skills grow because I have to really deeply think about things and, and put myself in other people’s shoes. And if they ask those tough questions, I love that cause that makes me grow too. And when I have to explain things to someone in a new way, that makes me discover things at a deeper level. So not only is it benefiting that other person, it’s also benefiting me.

It’s kind of like when you go on an airplane and they say in case of a loss of cabin pressure, put on your own mask first before helping someone else. I think we have to do that. We have to grow our own skills so that we can help someone else and they in turn can help someone else because we’re not on this world alone. If we build our skills and never share that, well great for us. But if someone else’s suffering, there’s a problem there. So by helping someone else, you not only help them but you help yourself because your skills and knowledge grow or at least you get practice in mentoring and public speaking and whatever you’re doing. And I think that helps elevate all of us, which is a great thing.

Tracie:

I love that. Thank you. The kind of switching topics just a little bit, you and I both started out in the days when agile was not a prevalent thing in the technology space. And maybe could you talk a little bit about how the advent of agile and some of the agile methodologies like scrum or Kanban or, or something like that have changed or not changed how you approach business analysis work?

Dave:

The important thing to remember is that the underlying fundamentals of what a business analyst or a related roles do is still there. You know, the communication, the collaboration, facilitation, exploration, finding the right solutions, making sure that we’re decomposing things into smaller, understandable, more meaningful chunks. All that is the same. So all the, all the underlying principles and competencies are the same. We just apply them in different way. So instead of writing the, you know, system, shell statement type of requirements, we have to shift our thinking a little bit, not just to user stories cause that’s, that’s kind of the common theme where well instead of saying the system shall I just say as a User I want to. So that, and I think a lot of people are missing the point there, but we have to more think of it as we know requirements are going to be wrong at some point.

I don’t think I’ve ever written any requirements document was a hundred percent right. As much as I’d like to say it was, something’s always wrong. And it might not be that I was wrong. It might be that we were told something wrong, something changed. So the idea is no, that we’re going to be wrong, we’ll find out we’re wrong sooner. So how that translates to me is instead of thinking about things like requirements documents, think of requirements or the business needs or customer needs as a hypothesis. So I like thinking about business analysis is more of a scientist now where we have to take a scientific approach and say, okay, we believe that by doing X it’s going to have this outcome, which is the kind of scope statement or benefit statement of the project. Okay, well how do we know if that’s true or not?

Well, we could do a little bit of analysis, do a business case. But again, a business case is just on paper. How can we prove this? So is there an experiment that we can run and validate our ideas? So I like taking this scientific approach and saying, well what if that is not true? What if this is not going to make us $10 million? What if it’s not going to save all these people’s lives, whatever. How do we find out sooner? Four on the right track. So to me, agile is all about adaptability. So we can’t adapt if we continue to work the same way. And just do everything upfront and then build that thing and then put it out there. There’s no opportunity to adapt. So we need to do is take a more scientific approach and say, I have a hypothesis. What experiments can I run to prove or disprove that hypothesis and then look at the results and adjust.

So if we look at more of user stories and jobs to be done and other tools like that as experiments or hypotheses, and at the end say, what would, what would validate or invalidate that idea and then let’s get feedback and then let’s look at it again. I think that’s the fundamental shift that has to take place for us to get the true benefit out of agile practices and link practices. Without it, all we’re doing is reformatting a system shell statement and that’s not really getting us the benefit that we want out of out of these different practices and what the world needs today.

Tracie:

Oh, I love that. So much. So also with agile light. I think a lot of things that BA’s are concerned about right now, I see this a lot with people that I talk to is sort of the, the role within say a scrum environment within the team doesn’t necessarily keep us in our silos and we’re sorta comfortable in our BA silos a little bit. Could you maybe talk just a about what you think some of the expectations or mindset changes we should have as as BA’s within that, that sort of scrum environment?

Dave:

Yeah, and I know in the early stages of agile and years ago when we had transformations, there’s a lot of concern that, well I don’t see a role for a BA on a scrum team. And a lot of people were concerned about that. Even the, the quality engineers were concerned because while there is no QA role either, it’s just called a development team. So there were a lot of concerns about that. And I do know a lot of organizations got rid of their, their BA’s and other roles and expected just things to magically happen, I guess. But you know, the, the skills regardless of the title, the skills are still needed. But I think there is a fundamental shift that has to take place as far as what the expectations of our roles are and what we do on a scrum team.

And that’s really too, we’re all there on the scrum team or any agile team to help deliver high quality solutions to our customers faster. That’s a fundamental thing we’re trying to do. So how do we do that and that, that’s a big question. We can do that in many ways. One of the ways is to make sure what we are trying to create is valuable and what’s actually needed and it’s creating faster feedback loops and that scientific approach, like I mentioned earlier, and it’s also making sure everyone is clear about what these pieces of functionality are. The user stories, jobs to be done. Whatever you’re doing, let’s make sure when it’s clear, cause if there’s uncertainty or ambiguity then it’s going to slow down the team. We’ll probably build the wrong thing. But then there’s a whole other delivery part. We can’t say, well, I created the user stories, I’m done with my part.

We have to look at the team as a whole and say, how can I help my team to succeed? Uh, I used to talk to a lot of teams about Michael Jordan on the Chicago bulls when he was a player there. It doesn’t matter if he scores 80 points, if the other team scores 82 the Bulls lose. So we have to look at it on how can I help my team succeed? Not I’ve done my part. And it’s not only the BA, it’s the developer. We can’t just say, okay, I’ve coded it, toss it over to QA, I’m done. You know, we’re all in this together. So we succeed or fail as a team. So you have to ask yourself, what can I do on this team to help the team succeed? Yes, there’s my business analysis things I could help on a scrum team, the product owner to manage the backlog and break things down, make sure everything is understood by the team, make sure they’re collaborating.

Maybe I could help test, maybe I could sit with the software engineer and do some pair programming. Even if I’m not good at coding, what else can I do on this team to help us to deliver more valuable stuff faster and with higher quality and we just have to open our minds and expand, see, use that observation and systems thinking and say, what can I do that’ll help here? Maybe your team has a lot of dependencies and you notice it and say, how can we break those dependencies? Can we get someone with that skill set on our team? Can we get someone in here to teach us for 10 minutes and now we can do it ourselves? So having that outlook of systems thinking and really expanding, what can I do to help my team succeed in my organization succeed? That’s where I see the role shifting a little bit. It’s not just working in your silo as you said, it’s how can I help the team to succeed?

Tracie:

I love that and that’s certainly the way to approach all things I think is that we are all succeeding or failing together, so to speak. Um, what are maybe some tips you would give folks who are now in this environment of I’m on a remote agile team and how do you sort of sustain that active collaboration when you’re not necessarily in the office together anymore?

Dave:

Yeah, a lot of people are struggling with that right now and the biggest recommendation I have is to use the tools that you have. If you’re trying to communicate over email, you’re probably gonna fail. So what kind of tools or other things can we use to create higher bandwidth communication? We can’t get all in a room together and use a white board and have that conversation, which is probably one of the best ways of doing things where I can sketch something out, hand the marker off. Someone else could sketch, get everyone engaged like we talked about earlier. But there are plenty of tools out there that allow us to do the same thing in a virtual environment at first of all, when you’re having a meeting, use a camera. I don’t care if someone’s in their pajamas, I don’t care if their hair is messed up.

I don’t care if there’s a mess. I don’t care if their kids are going crazy in the background. What I care about is that face to face communication and that people are engaged. So one of the first things we could do is turn our own cameras on. If we’re not willing to do it, no one else is going to be willing to do it. So we have to be people that take the first step and set that expectation. If you want, don’t say, okay, everyone turn your cameras on. It’s, Hey, in this meeting, I’d love to have more face to face and better communication. Can we all plan on turning our cameras on next Tuesday? Or maybe it’s, Hey, let’s make this fun. Everyone wear a crazy hat or he has something like that just to make it a little fun but, but get people to turn the cameras on and then find a tool that allows you to virtually collaborate.

I know WebEx and Zoom and a bunch of other tools have virtual whiteboards where anyone could draw on their, uh, their tools like mural and mural and lucid charts that allow people to in real time collaborate in the same virtual space. And it’s a really powerful tool when you can virtually not just pass that marker, but everyone has a marker in their hand and everyone’s marking things up on the board. And it doesn’t have to be pretty. The key is that everyone is engaged. I’ve been in meetings where I drew some, uh, just a, a squiggle on a whiteboard. It no meaning whatsoever. And people were engaged because I was doing something actively. And we need to be able to get that engagement even in a virtual environment. So to me the big things are connect virtually with the camera, highest bandwidth communication possible. And what I mean by that is the most information shared a phone call, you’re losing a lot of the body language, you still hear tonal inflection and things like that that you lose an email, instant messaging.

But when you have a camera and now you could read facial expressions, some other things going on, when you have that whiteboard now we can collaborate together. And that’s what I mean by high bandwidth, the most information through the pipe at the same time. So get to a high bandwidth communication possible, turn on your camera, get that face to face, find some kind of virtual collaboration tool. And I think that’s a really powerful way of communicating and getting engagement. Of course when you turn your camera on, you can tell when people are disengaged. So that’s, that’s one of the good things. And you want that engagement and you could say, Hey Bob, I noticed you’re sitting back here. Are you confused about something or do you have a question? I’d really love to hear from you cause I know you know a lot about this topic and it’s a great way of keeping people engaged.

Tracie:

Love it. We’ve already touched on this bit, but maybe just to reiterate a lot of uncertainty happening at the moment. Um, not knowing how companies are going to be sustainable or, or whatnot during this last several months, what would you share with the uh, BA who’s wondering about the uncertainty in what they can do to provide value in the uncertainty and also, um, prepare for change?

Dave:

So let me, let me take them out of order maybe. So, preparing for change, the thing to remember is that we’re in the change business. We are change agents. We need to expect change. Even if our company is doing fantastic and one of the best companies in the world, expect change. It might not be negative change, it might be very positive change. But we need to be able to, first of all ourselves, adapt to change and understand what that change brings. So when there are times of change, ask questions, work to understand, be curious. And then as far as preparing for uncertainty, we live in a, what we refer to as a VUCA world view. CA it’s volatile, it’s uncertain. Uh, forgot what the other two were. Ambiguous is the age, but I forgot what the C but it’s not going to get any less. So it’s not going to get less ambiguous.

Change is not going to slow down. It’s just going to keep increasing. So there are things where we have to be able to reflect and adapt and understand what’s coming in the future. And we don’t always see what’s coming in the future. But stay tuned to what’s going on in your organization, your department, the world, see which way the trends are going. And we can only do that by reading and listening to the news and keeping current and joining groups. So I think part of that is just building that solid foundation of staying curious, being observant about what’s going on and continue to build your skills. It no point is there going to be, Oh, building my skill. So was a waste of time because the skills that we build can be so clickable in almost any different role. I mean, name a different role that doesn’t need to get people to collaborate.

That doesn’t need to facilitate. I mean, unless you’re working somewhere locked in a closet and you never interact with people, all these skills are going to be valuable. I don’t care if you become CIO, you need business analysis skills for that. So you’ve really got to work on building your skills, connect with people, join a professional organization, few join professional organizations and start giving back to the community. You’re going to build that reputation. And if something negative does happen with your career, you have that support system and chances are seminal reach out to say, Hey, I heard you’re looking. We have this great opportunity over here. We’d love to have you. And that’s how we can really protect ourselves and see what’s going on and take steps to change.

Tracie:

Totally agree with that. Thank you for sharing that with us. So as we close, I just sort of want to know what’s coming up for you. What’s got you excited, new things that you’re working on.

Dave:

So there, there is a lot of change. Now I was planning on speaking at the agile 2020 conference. Uh, but that’s been changed. I don’t know if it’ll be canceled or or changed to a virtual. But in there, some of the things that I’m talking about is a little bit of this scientific method and understanding we know how to build quality projects. The big thing now is building the right things and building in the right way. And I think that’s where product owners, product managers, business analysts could really help. So to me, the world is shifting. It’s not just change the way we work to agile ways of working. It’s how can we build better products the right way. And again, we know how to do the coding and the testing and pieces, but what are the right things to build? And that’s where this scientific method comes in. This is where concepts like product that comes in where if we don’t build the right thing or too much of one, we’re, we’re just putting a strain in the organization and we’re not creating the benefits that we want to. So I think that’s where, where we could really focus is are we building the right thing? Let’s not do things that are low value. Let’s focus on helping our organizations to do the right things.

Tracie:

Love it. Well, thank you so much, just such an insightful conversation. I really appreciate your time with us today. So how can folks get in touch with you?

Dave:

Well, if you’re interested in my podcast, it’s available pretty much everywhere. iTunes, Google play music, it’s Mastering Business Analysis. You can go to my website, mastering business analysis.com or you can look me up in LinkedIn and my last name is spelled S. A. B. O. E.

Tracie:

Awesome. Everyone makes sure that you do connect with Dave and you’ll get a lot of insight and a lot of the learning from that experience. So, and your call to action today, if there is something from our conversation that resonated with you, leave me a comment at traceabilitypodcast.com or email me at tracie@traceabilitycoach.com. So, thanks Dave.